Who owns who? - organic and natural companies

[bluedawg]

heh.

[herbi]

well, herbi got mad because i cropped my pups ears

(off-topic reply-- I didn't get mad because you had cropped dogs as a kid, and I specifically said I understand that you might not've known any better, that the decision might not've been yours, etc... What makes me mad is 1) docking/cropping in general (so not "at you" per se, just at the whole concept), and 2) when people promote the idea on this website that it's a justifiable, humane, or even "necessary" procedure, as I felt you were doing. I was mad at your statements, not at YOU. And I thought we were over that anyway. I'm sorry if you're still upset by my upsetness-- it's just a really upsetting topic, and from the tone of a lot of your previous posts, I assumed you would be able to handle a "heavier" comeback. My bad. To me deliberately inflicting damage to a baby animal is a lot "less vegan" than drinking soymilk. But that's just me. You make up your own rules for living your own life, whether they make people "mad" or not! After all, a lot of meat eaters are probably "mad" at you for your choices, and even if you tend to agree with "us vegans" more than you do them, we're all (those meat eaters and the rest of us) basically just random people who are Not You.)

ETA - plus, surprise surprise, I actually agree completely with FarmerStephen's post. Probably everyone here does something that other people would disagree with or find fault with. I drink Silk too, and I HAVE been yelled at about it, and those people have a valid point. *shrug* And despite my continued hardcore support for spay/neuter, I do truly understand the Philosophical reasons why it's not strictly in line with Animal Rights. (I still don't get the bull riding thing though.) I think this is what a lot of us have been trying to emphasize to you across several threads-- there isn't a Big Book Of Vegan Rules (and Grammar ) that we all have to swear to follow till death do us part. The important thing (I think) is to recognize that you have to be very Mindful of the things you do, the products you purchase, the actions you choose to take in this world, and the consequences of those actions/purchases. Many times (ALL times?) there isn't a clear-cut "100% Guaranteed Vegan" option in front of you, so you make an informed decision as to where you are or are not willing to compromise. Other people might try to persuade you that their own version of compromise is better, and you might agree with them after listening to their arguments, and adjust your own position. Or you might not.

[YogaChick]

(off-topic reply-- I didn't get mad because you had cropped dogs as a kid, and I specifically said I understand that you might not've known any better, that the decision might not've been yours, etc... What makes me mad is 1) docking/cropping in general (so not "at you" per se, just at the whole concept), and 2) when people promote the idea on this website that it's a justifiable, humane, or even "necessary" procedure, as I felt you were doing. I was mad at your statements, not at YOU. And I thought we were over that anyway. I'm sorry if you're still upset by my upsetness-- it's just a really upsetting topic, and from the tone of a lot of your previous posts, I assumed you would be able to handle a "heavier" comeback. My bad. To me deliberately inflicting damage to a baby animal is a lot "less vegan" than drinking soymilk. But that's just me. You make up your own rules for living your own life, whether they make people "mad" or not! After all, a lot of meat eaters are probably "mad" at you for your choices, and even if you tend to agree with "us vegans" more than you do them, we're all (those meat eaters and the rest of us) basically just random people who are Not You.)

ETA - plus, surprise surprise, I actually agree completely with FarmerStephen's post. Probably everyone here does something that other people would disagree with or find fault with. I drink Silk too, and I HAVE been yelled at about it, and those people have a valid point. *shrug* And despite my continued hardcore support for spay/neuter, I do truly understand the Philosophical reasons why it's not strictly in line with Animal Rights. (I still don't get the bull riding thing though.) I think this is what a lot of us have been trying to emphasize to you across several threads-- there isn't a Big Book Of Vegan Rules (and Grammar ) that we all have to swear to follow till death do us part. The important thing (I think) is to recognize that you have to be very Mindful of the things you do, the products you purchase, the actions you choose to take in this world, and the consequences of those actions/purchases. Many times (ALL times?) there isn't a clear-cut "100% Guaranteed Vegan" option in front of you, so you make an informed decision as to where you are or are not willing to compromise. Other people might try to persuade you that their own version of compromise is better, and you might agree with them after listening to their arguments, and adjust your own position. Or you might not.

Herbi, (what was it you said to me one time?..) I disagree with virtually everything you just said. There may not be a "Big Book of Vegan rules" but there are some rules we follow that separate us from the rest. From what you just said, anyone can be vegan that deems themselves worthy. Someone wearing a beaver coat, drinking a milk shake and eating beef jerky can say "I'm vegan"if they want. And we know damn well that person isnt. Why? Because she clearly isnt following some of the MAIN vegan rules.

Vegans don't eat meat, eat/drink cows milk, or eat eggs. (and those things listed we follow are just dietary) Most vegans also don't (and never would even dream to) support those things. By buying Silk you are. You are giving a DAIRY FARM your money. Supporting them. The joy of being a vegan is that, every dollar you spend is a vote you cast. (I say this because vegans seem more aware of what they spend and what it supports) You vote to or not to support what you want. Drinking silk supports your vegan diet, yes, but doesnt make you a caring vegan. Throughout history vegans have been known as smart and caring. If someone (does this *shrug*) doesnt care, it's could be seen as unvegan. When clearly we care more than most people (maybe I should say mindful) about things people in their lives dont think twice about. So when you make the informed choice to buy silk, that means you know that they are dairy farmers and you just don't care. Why? Because it tastes good ... or whatever. The reason is less important than the fact that you support it KNOWING what's going on. This is the reason I get so hard on myself when I find out a product i have isn't vegan. Collgate isnt vegan. (Not because of the ingredients, but because of what they do and support) So, Silk may be vegan because of what's in it, but in fact it is no more vegan than colgate. It supports animal abuse. I buy soy milk (I dont know how often you buy silk) every week, sometimes 2 times a week. You cast a vote probably very often, for animal abusers, and that in my opinion isnt vegan.

There may not be a 100% vegan choice, but that is no reason to vote for what isnt even 50% vegan.

I understand some vegans have leather items, or some bottles of products with honey or whatever, those votes have already been cast. Dollars already spent. So, I can understand why people want to use their things until they finish/they fall apart. But if I was shopping with a vegan friend and she saw me buying colgate she would probably verbally attack me and remind me of what they do! Because it isnt some tooth paste i had in my bathroom from prevegan times.. It's a vote that's to be cast NOW.

I'm done buying silk because I wouldnt buy vegan shoes from a leather company just because the shoes were vegan...

[KKB]

oh boy...
(i think i'll just back away now before the storm breaks)

[attackferret]

::starts to say something about 5 times, then joins katelin in the backing away::

[Emiloid]

Yikes. I hardly know where to begin....

So when you make the informed choice to buy silk, that means you know that they are dairy farmers and you just don't care. Why? Because it tastes good ... or whatever. The reason is less important than the fact that you support it KNOWING what's going on.

There are two (not incompatible) ways of thinking about purchases and voting with your dollars:
1) not supporting what you don't want to support
2) supporting what you do want to support

When someone buys a vegan product from a company that makes non-vegan items, they are casting their "vote" in support of the vegan stuff. If companies like White Wave know that there is a vegan market out there, they will make more vegan stuff, and that's good. If they make more vegan stuff they will spend a smaller percent of their money packaging/marketing the non-vegan stuff. It's kind of like telling a non-vegan "god for you" when they choose a vegan item or meal. It's a step in the right direction and your support for their compassionate decisions does not condone their other, non-vegan choices.

People have different tactics, and sometimes their approach varies from one purchase to the next. For instance, if I buy some soy milk from Safeway, that lets them know that soymilk is a product that their customers want. I'm giving some money to Safeway, but I'm also sending them a message.

I'm certainly not saying that anyone should be more lax (or more strict) than they want to. I just want to point out that there are different approaches to creating a vegan market. I don't think one is worse than the other. Anyway, I think that picking on herbi--or anyone--for one (vegan!) item she buys is ridiculous. We all have to live in a world that is for the most part completely unfriendly to vegans. We're all trying to make it a better world, partly through our purchases. If you can support only vegan companies, that's great, but I think that supporting the vegan products sold by non-vegan companies is an acceptable tactic, especially when it's a supplement to buying as much as possible from entirely vegan companies.

[Dandelion]

Vegans don't eat meat, eat/drink cows milk, or eat eggs. (and those things listed we follow are just dietary) Most vegans also don't (and never would even dream to) support those things. By buying Silk you are. You are giving a DAIRY FARM your money. Supporting them. The joy of being a vegan is that, every dollar you spend is a vote you cast. (I say this because vegans seem more aware of what they spend and what it supports) You vote to or not to support what you want. Drinking silk supports your vegan diet, yes, but doesnt make you a caring vegan.

This was discussed at length in the Murder King - bkveggie thread and many others like it but i'll refresh. In some people's views of veganism, buying any product that's vegan regardless of it's origin is vegan. You are correct that vegans center around the boycott of animal products to use the dollar as a vote. I always argue this works in a positive way as well.

Big Evil Dairy Corp sells vegan Silk. People buy vegan Silk. More people buy vegan Silk. Big Evil Dairy Corp says 'hmm maybe we should give up this dairy racket.'

I don't think that money spent on a vegan product goes into some big coffer that gets used on making dairy. It gets spent on replacing that vegan product. A dollar you spend on a vegan product is a vote you cast for veganism. What stores do you only shop at where they only sell vegan products? I mean i would love everybody to buy everything at VeganEssentials but that's just not a viable means.

ETA- Emiloid beat me to it...much more eloquently might i add.

[YogaChick]

so why are people boycotting Tom's of Maine now that they are owned by colgate? From what you just said they aren't because Tom's is a natural vegan product, so colgate is going to use that money to replace more of Toms items...In that case.. heck just buy colgate.. it's vegan..

no, I dont buy it, I never will.

[Dandelion]

so why are people boycotting Tom's of main now that they are owned by colgate? From what you just said they aren't because Tom's is a natural vegan product, so colgate is going to use that money to replace more of Toms items...

no, I dont buy it, I never will.

i dunno, why doncha ask them?
The Colgate/Tom's issue isn't entirely related. Colgate's products may not have animal products inside but use animal testing to make them so in that sense they aren't vegan. ToM doesn't use animal testing and if people buy Colgate's ToM, they may see the value in ceasing animal testing in all their products. Also they can bring these products to wider market blah blah blah...
i won't make ya buy anything, promise.

[LazyGirl]

From what you just said, anyone can be vegan that deems themselves worthy. Someone wearing a beaver coat, drinking a milk shake and eating beef jerky can say "I'm vegan"if they want.

This is absolutely correct. A person can define themselves any way that they see fit. What I have learned is that I do not have to agree with that definition. Case in point: I have a friend who identifies as vegan, yet he purchases leather shoes, and when I asked him for advice about keeping warm in cold weather, he gave me a long treatise about why (sustainably-harvested) wool is the best choice. Though I occasionally heckle him about his "vegan-ness", I am not about to get into a discussion with another grown person about what they choose to call themselves. Life's too short. By the same token, if some of my "vegan" choices are unacceptable to other vegans, they can kindly keep it to themselves. I'm willing to bet that if I took the time, I could find just as many "nonvegan" characteristics about them as they can find about me, so I'm willing to call it a draw.

I agree with you that we should all make informed choices about what we buy and that we should do all that we can to "caring vegans". What I like about these forums is that there are intelligent discussions about various options and civilised, philosophical debates about which ones are best. I completely admire those of you whose vegan bar is higher than mine. I'm not there yet (on some things). I don't buy Colgate, but I do purchase "vegan" Boca products. I'm a work in progress, and where I am at any given point is nobody's business but my own. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while "what is vegan?" debates are mentally stimulating, in application, I do the best I can and let everyone else do the same.

[YogaChick]

Yikes. I hardly know where to begin....



There are two (not incompatible) ways of thinking about purchases and voting with your dollars:
1) not supporting what you don't want to support
2) supporting what you do want to support

When someone buys a vegan product from a company that makes non-vegan items, they are casting their "vote" in support of the vegan stuff. If companies like White Wave know that there is a vegan market out there, they will make more vegan stuff, and that's good. If they make more vegan stuff they will spend a smaller percent of their money packaging/marketing the non-vegan stuff. It's kind of like telling a non-vegan "god for you" when they choose a vegan item or meal. It's a step in the right direction and your support for their compassionate decisions does not condone their other, non-vegan choices.

People have different tactics, and sometimes their approach varies from one purchase to the next. For instance, if I buy some soy milk from Safeway, that lets them know that soymilk is a product that their customers want. I'm giving some money to Safeway, but I'm also sending them a message.

I'm certainly not saying that anyone should be more lax (or more strict) than they want to. I just want to point out that there are different approaches to creating a vegan market. I don't think one is worse than the other. Anyway, I think that picking on herbi--or anyone--for one (vegan!) item she buys is ridiculous. We all have to live in a world that is for the most part completely unfriendly to vegans. We're all trying to make it a better world, partly through our purchases. If you can support only vegan companies, that's great, but I think that supporting the vegan products sold by non-vegan companies is an acceptable tactic, especially when it's a supplement to buying as much as possible from entirely vegan companies.

Well, I'm not "picking" on anyone, Silk isn't vegan, and it isnt just ONE product. It's the millions that are sold. Not to mention vegans buy soy milk often.. that isnt just one slip up, it's a habit. It was directed to people who want to be vegans buying silk, herbi even said she knew it was wrong, and the people who disagree with it have a valid point...

like I said before, what vegan would buy vegan shoes from people who skin cows while they are still alive? The same vegans who buy soy milk from people torturing the udders of cows? (and when those cows get older they are sold as low grade beef to fast food places after slaughter! So unvegan!) In order to be "the best vegan you can be" the only choices you make that are bad are choices are uninformed.. If a vegan bought silk, not knowing about the farms... then that person is still growing. Everyone is nice to me here and understanding when I buy something that isnt vegan, simply because I dont know. But to be the best vegan I can be is to not buy it again after I figure out what I bought.. I have to get better every day... and that is something I've learned here at VRF.

[YogaChick]

This is absolutely correct. A person can define themselves any way that they see fit. What I have learned is that I do not have to agree with that definition. Case in point: I have a friend who identifies as vegan, yet he purchases leather shoes, and when I asked him for advice about keeping warm in cold weather, he gave me a long treatise about why (sustainably-harvested) wool is the best choice. Though I occasionally heckle him about his "vegan-ness", I am not about to get into a discussion with another grown person about what they choose to call themselves. Life's too short. By the same token, if some of my "vegan" choices are unacceptable to other vegans, they can kindly keep it to themselves. I'm willing to bet that if I took the time, I could find just as many "nonvegan" characteristics about them as they can find about me, so I'm willing to call it a draw.

I agree with you that we should all make informed choices about what we buy and that we should do all that we can to "caring vegans". What I like about these forums is that there are intelligent discussions about various options and civilised, philosophical debates about which ones are best. I completely admire those of you whose vegan bar is higher than mine. I'm not there yet (on some things). I don't buy Colgate, but I do purchase "vegan" Boca products. I'm a work in progress, and where I am at any given point is nobody's business but my own. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while "what is vegan?" debates are mentally stimulating, in application, I do the best I can and let everyone else do the same.

Well, Hi there Lazy Girl. My name is Oprah! I'm a black woman with a lot of money! (in reality I'm a poor white girl) Is it my choice to tell you I'm Oprah or is it a lie?

If anyone could be anything just by saying they are.. the world would be different and people could be christians with out reading the bible, and we could all be skinny with out a diet, and we could all say we make a lot of money..

Being skinny, and rich are things you work for. Being vegan is no different. To be the best vegan you can be is earing the title.

In reality there is a dictionary. In order to be classified as what you want, you need to meet the requirements.

PS. On Mondays I'm Miss America.

[bluedawg]

if anybody needs me i'll be over there, holding hands with Katelin and attackferret.

[LazyGirl]

PS. On Mondays I'm Miss America.

I don't doubt it for a second!

My point is simply that I'd rather not spend mental energy on getting upset about how other people define themselves, whether they be fish-eating "vegetarians" or bigbadcorporatebrandnameX-buying vegans. As I said, I may disagree with their chosen label for themselves (and substitute another one in my own mind), but I've got bigger carrots to slice. Someone who eats beef jerky and knocks it back with a glass of cow's milk can call him/herself a vegan, and there's not a thing in the world that I can do about it. I'd rather spend that energy being who I am and sharing any insight or knowledge that I have with those who ask for it.

ETA:

Being skinny, and rich are things you work for. Being vegan is no different. To be the best vegan you can be is earing the title.

I absolutely agree with this. Alls I'm sayin' is that, just like people can have different definitions of "skinny" or "rich", the same goes for "vegan", and I'm going to concentrate on what that means for me, and I'll be getting better and refining my definition with every choice.

[YogaChick]

OK, well, I'm going to leave on that note, and go to some yoga. I'll be trying to forget that my fellow vegans here at VRF think it's ok to support dairy farming animal abusers.