Vegetables that a byproduct of animal suffering.

**nomenclator** · 02-05-2012, 02:03 PM

We've know that organic farming relies heavily on "byproducts" of animal agriculture. Blood meal, bone meal, excrement. Some vegans claim they aren't concerned about eating such vegetables, being that the animal products in question are only "byproducts" and not the main product. I have long been countering that by saying that the sale of such by products to organic vegetable farmers helps animal farmers earn a profit, and stay in business, and that we need to have more vegan gardening and farming, and that there is no one else that will do that other than ourselves. Now I've learned about something that is even worse, aquaponics — an enterprise where animal agriculture is the main business, and vegetables are the byproduct. Should we buy such vegetables?

Here is an article on the subject of aquaponics as a by-product of fishfarming. Aquaponics can involve soil-grown plants, but often involves hydroponics. It links to an article on fish farming, from which it gets the following quote...

My focus has always been and continues to be concentrated on quality fish growing systems with the aquaponics being the secondary profit center. Aquaponics was started to have a place to dispose of the fish waste in a profitable manner

Looking at the vegetables for sale at Whole Foods, for example, I see lots of vegetables that have labels saying they are greenhouse grown or hydroponically grown. I wonder how many of these are a "byproduct" of fish farming. In particular I've noticed hydroponically grown watercress.

I tend to prefer to put the "accent the positive" rather than focus on trying to drive out the negative. I often hear vegans whining about how non-vegans don't provide them with enough vegan food choices in restaurants owned and operated by non-vegans, whining about how non-vegan commercial food producers don't make products vegan by removing non-vegan ingredients. To them I say, stop focusing on the negative, and accent the positive. Dam it, stop whining, and start growing your own food, operating your own restaurants, and operating your own commercial food production. We must take control of the means of production, rather than whine to the people that are currently in control. Stop being children. Stop complaining to your mother about what she feeds you, and starting preparing your own meals. Otherwise the vegan revolution will remain in its infancy.

Otherwise we will continue to be those whiny vegans that everyone hates.

**Dandelion** · 02-07-2012, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by nomenclator

We've know that organic farming relies heavily on "byproducts" of animal agriculture. Blood meal, bone meal, excrement. Some vegans claim they aren't concerned about eating such vegetables, being that the animal products in question are only "byproducts" and not the main product. I have long been countering that by saying that the sale of such by products to organic vegetable farmers helps animal farmers earn a profit, and stay in business, and that we need to have more vegan gardening and farming, and that there is no one else that will do that other than ourselves. Now I've learned about something that is even worse, aquaponics — an enterprise where animal agriculture is the main business, and vegetables are the byproduct. Should we buy such vegetables?

That's a good point! It's the monetization of byproducts that helps buffer the profit margins keeping animal-using businesses in business. You'd think vegans wouldn't want to buy anything but veganic foods (including anything packaged natch).

**Mahk** · 02-08-2012, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dandelion

You'd think vegans wouldn't want to buy anything but veganic foods (including anything packaged natch).

That wouldn't describe me, personally. I'm a vegan and I have never sought to buy veganic food, nor will I. Furthermore, I'm confident all the vegetables and fruits I eat are farmed predominantly by people who typically:

-wear leather gloves (and shoes) while they work and pick my vegetables
-aren't themselves vegan, eat meat on their lunch breaks, and harm animals in hundreds of ways I'm not happy about and don't choose to do myself
-use animal based soil enhancers (manure, blood, bone meal, etc) produced from animals I would consider have lived horrible, confined, short lives until they are finally killed in slow and painful deaths without anesthesia

and finally,

-use the money I pay them to further exploit and kill animals in ways I personally detest and choose not to.

I have no qualms about any of this, accept that 99% of people (all the non-vegans) have different views than mine, and believe that I have no right to impose my beliefs on others any more than they do on me.

I wouldn't consider boycotting non-veganic farmers services/products anymore than I would a service provider who has different views than mine regarding abortion, the death penalty, gun control, global warming, how to roll a tube of toothpaste properly, or if pants should be put on one leg at a time or both in unison. If there are people who think I am less "pro women's reproductive freedom","pro gun control", "toothpaste waste sensitive" etc., because I don't boycott the groups they choose to, it's not my problem.

The only goods I avoid are ones which fundamentally could not be produced without the use of animals, for example real leather shoes or a hamburger. Although I'm confident the corn (and pretty much all other vegetables) I eat is made with animal manure, this was by choice and not necessity. Corn will grow in normal, run of the mill, soil, just not as well, or, alternatively, other non-animal based fertilizers could have been used, had the hamburger-eating, leather-gloved farmer wanted.

**marks98** · 02-08-2012, 11:01 AM

ew this thread made me lose my apetite!

**nomenclator** · 02-08-2012, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mahk

That wouldn't describe me, personally. I'm a vegan and I have never sought to buy veganic food, nor will I. Furthermore, I'm confident all the vegetables and fruits I eat are farmed predominantly by people who typically:

-wear leather gloves (and shoes) while they work and pick my vegetables
-aren't themselves vegan, eat meat on their lunch breaks, and harm animals in hundreds of ways I'm not happy about and don't choose to do myself
-use animal based soil enhancers (manure, blood, bone meal, etc) produced from animals I would consider have lived horrible, confined, short lives until they are finally killed in slow and painful deaths without anesthesia

and finally,

-use the money I pay them to further exploit and kill animals in ways I personally detest and choose not to.

I have no qualms about any of this, accept that 99% of people (all the non-vegans) have different views than mine, and believe that I have no right to impose my beliefs on others any more than they do on me.

I wouldn't consider boycotting non-veganic farmers services/products anymore than I would a service provider who has different views than mine regarding abortion, the death penalty, gun control, global warming, how to roll a tube of toothpaste properly, or if pants should be put on one leg at a time or both in unison. If there are people who think I am less "pro women's reproductive freedom","pro gun control", "toothpaste waste sensitive" etc., because I don't boycott the groups they choose to, it's not my problem.

The only goods I avoid are ones which fundamentally could not be produced without the use of animals, for example real leather shoes or a hamburger. Although I'm confident the corn (and pretty much all other vegetables) I eat is made with animal manure, this was by choice and not necessity. Corn will grow in normal, run of the mill, soil, just not as well, or, alternatively, other non-animal based fertilizers could have been used, had the hamburger-eating, leather-gloved farmer wanted.

Neither dandelion nor I mentioned boycotting anything. Personally, I have little interest in boycotting anything.

Actually, most agriculture relies more on haber-process nitrogen than on decaying excrement or slaughterhouse byproducts. It is organic agriculture that depends heavily on this animal matter.

I see taking the intitiative and growing my own food as a positive activity, rather than as a boycott of food grown otherwise.

Not only did my garden have no animal products added by me (there is some excrement added by birds flying over, and of course the soil is heavily constructed of earthworm excrement, and nematode excrement, not to mention the metabolic "waste" of prokaryotic organisms) — but the food tastes much much better. Some vegetables taste so much better, that it seems like I am eating a different food. One food I don't really enjoy, the other I enjoy and look forward to. Simply because of the taste and texture. I believe my plants have a slightly better profile of nutrients, too.

Taking control of the means of production is very different than boycotting products or companies that make them. I view the former as a positive action, what one does, the latter as a negative action, what one doesn't do, or refuses to do.

Of course if one doesn't do take over the means of food production, it doesn't mean one is not a vegan. But I think it is a good idea. Better than "boycotting" and complaining to companies about their not accomodating our needs.

Whenever I eat a vegetable, I actually "taste" the soil it was grown in.

**Mahk** · 02-08-2012, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by nomenclator

We've know that organic farming relies heavily on "byproducts" of animal agriculture. Blood meal, bone meal, excrement. Some vegans claim they aren't concerned about eating such vegetables, being that the animal products in question are only "byproducts" and not the main product. I have long been countering that by saying that the sale of such by products to organic vegetable farmers helps animal farmers earn a profit, and stay in business...

I mistakingly though you were suggesting that vegans funding such farmers were in some sense wrong/bad/hypocritical and therefore such purchases should be avoided/curtailed, or "not bought", hence my use of the word "boycott" which I was using in a loose sense. Also what I was specifically responding to I quoted:

You'd think vegans wouldn't want to buy anything but veganic foods

-[Dandelion]

**Lentil** · 02-11-2012, 09:23 AM

I would love to grow my own food, not so much for ethical reasons as for personal enjoyment. Sadly, I am a lousy gardener, and the weather here isn't permissible to growing anything outdoors for more than half the year. I highly doubt most veggies labeled as "hydroponic" are grown with this new "aquaponic" method with fish -- they would probably be advertised as such and price accordingly ($$$$), since they are so much more "sustainable" and that is such a buzzword these days.

You do raise an interesting question. Often at our local farmer's market, an individual farm will be selling both veggies and meat, dairy or eggs. I've thought about only buying from stands that sell only vegetables, but sometimes the particular veggie I'm looking for is only available at the animal product selling stands. I don't worry about it, but maybe I should.

**The.Protist** · 02-15-2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Lentil

I would love to grow my own food, not so much for ethical reasons as for personal enjoyment. Sadly, I am a lousy gardener, and the weather here isn't permissible to growing anything outdoors for more than half the year.

You should try foraging for wild food. No green thumb needed! plus if you eat something like invasive like garlic mustard you will be helping the environment even more.