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eatyourveggies
10-12-2003, 07:08 PM
i need to know HONESTLY what you all think of this.

i keep meeting more and more people that tell me they were vegan or they were veggie but have gone back to thier old ways due to health problems.

i know people say "oh i have soo much more energy" or that they feel sooo much better. but to be honest, i didnt feel a bit of difference when going veggie. granted, that was 10 years ago...but still. i certainly didnt notice a decline in my health.

i have to say though, honestly, i feel worse as a vegan then i did as just veggie. its been about 2 years now. i have done my research. i have read the books. i have calculated my protein needs.
i dont feel bad. im not wasting away. but i do have a feeling of tiredness that is with me all the time. i have had irons tests done several times and they are fine.

i still race bicycles...and i still do good...i even beat meat eaters :) but i dont think i recover as fast as i used to. i used to be somewhat tired the following day after a race....now im am totally fried.

my vegan lifestyle is more important to me then me feeling 100% all the time. but i must say, i have a general feeling of discouragement regarding the "health benefits" of a vegan diet.

is this just me, or does anyone else feel this way?

thanks

gladcow
10-12-2003, 08:06 PM
Ok, here is my honest response:

Tiredness:
I am always tired. But, I have two small kids, so I am not sure if I would be more or less tired if I was not vegan

Over all:
I feel better after eating than when I was omni. I don't have as many negative side-effects during my period. I don't get sick as often. My weight is about where it should be (but I don't excersize much). I do pay an awful lot of attention to what I put in my mouth. We eat a lot of veggies, fruit, and whole grains.

My Conclusion:
I am healthier as a vegan than I was before. But I am not sure if all people could be. There is a lot of information to learn about nutrition in order to be a healthy person (in my opinion) vegan or not.

herbi
10-12-2003, 08:07 PM
Honestly, I didn't notice any change in my health or energy since going vegan, bad or good. Maybe there's something else that's changed coincidentally...? More processed foods? eating at different times? new source of stress in your life? etc... sorry I'm not much help, just wanted to supply one of the opinions you're seeking. "No change here."

misanthropy
10-12-2003, 08:07 PM
Hmmm... I know I feel better as a vegan than before (both as an omni and as a lacto-ovo vegetarian). My boyfriend also feels better as a vegan. We VERY rarely get sick and when we do, it's usually over pretty quickly and without getting really bad.

I also heal (non-intentional) cuts, piercings and tattoos pretty quickly too as a vegan than before.

I'm not a really active person to begin with but I know that my energy levels are increased when I eat more raw fruit & vegetables and less sluggish foods (for me) like pasta, rice or bread. Have you tried increasing your raw fruit & vegetable content in meals?

Another thing for your tiredness especially after racing... I wonder if part of that has to do with age? Not that you're old by any means, just wondering if that could also be a factor?

VeganMegan
10-12-2003, 08:17 PM
I could tell a positive difference from veggie to vegan and an even greater difference from vegan to raw vegan. My energy levels soared when I went raw.

There could be several factors to why youíre feeling tired. I donít have the answer for you so Iím not much help.

I do however, think that every human can live a healthy life on a vegan diet, even a raw vegan diet. You just have to eat the right things.

Remember, a vegan diet can be very healthy, but it can also be very unhealthy, like anything else, if not applied properly. You need to make sure youíre eating whole organic foods and choosing foods with the right vitamins, minerals and nutrients.

Good luck!

VeganKen
10-12-2003, 08:36 PM
Like herbi, I can't say that I feel any healthier since going vegan. I do feel more sluggish if I eat sugar (raw or processed) or if I eat alot of carbs. I have noticed that I have more energy when I have fresh juice for breakfast (http://www.plantbasedpeople.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1904). Not that that is necessarily going to work for you. Just saying what works for me.

Since you say that you've read the lit I won't offer suggestions. Except, maybe to consider keeping a food journal for a couple of weeks and track your energy levels as well. For example, writing down what you ate and how you felt an hour, maybe two afterwards. See if there's a pattern.

VeganXing
10-12-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by gladcow

I am always tired. But, I have two small kids. . .
That's the main factor behind my sleepiness - I don't get as much sleep as I used to. Also, when I over eat I get sleepy and slow.

I don't really see much difference in myself. I have to say, though, that I don't see any benefit in dairy or meat. If you were somehow able to bring some of that back into your diet, you might feel the difference then. Imagine, if you can, how eating those things might make you feel.

Like Megan said - you can do a good thing in a bad way. I don't eat by numbers, myself, but I do make sure I get certain types of foods. I suggest you look into natural hygiene (food combining). It seems to make sense (except for all the contradictory theories).

Also, make sure you get in more water than you think you should.

eatyourveggies
10-12-2003, 08:41 PM
hmmm... i do remember feeling a little better when i was juicing.

i will say that i havent had a cold in 2 years.

thanks for the response.


oh..yeah, age may have something to do with it.... but i dont know that if i was recovering fast at age 27, there would be a huge increase in my recovery time needs at age 29.

the difference in that, was that i had a whey based recovery drink...now i use soy.

misanthropy
10-12-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by eatyourveggies
oh..yeah, age may have something to do with it.... but i dont know that if i was recovering fast at age 27, there would be a huge increase in my recovery time needs at age 29.I have a friend that plays soccer competitively. He's omni, but in the 3 years that I have known him I have noticed that his body is "slowing down" a bit despite the fact that he hasn't changed his diet or activity level. Could just be one of those things?

Do you eat breakfast? Or have something in the morning? Even though I don't eat breakfast regularly (bad, I know), I do have much more energy throughout the day if I eat some fruit or drink some juice.

VeganXing
10-12-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by misanthropy
Even though I don't eat breakfast regularly (bad, I know)
I don't think that's bad. Sometimes I don't eat until 1 or 2. I do have water or sometimes juice in the morning. I then go off to carpet installing which is not an aerobic activity, but does require some energy. Now that I think about it, during my pre-veggie days, I would often sleep on the drive to the warehouse (30 min. drive). I don't do that anymore (it's a 60 min. drive now).

Anyway, you don't have to eat just because you're awake. Eat when you're ready (if you have a schedule that would allow it).

Emiloid
10-12-2003, 11:02 PM
This is an intersting thread. I went from omni to pesce-vegan to vegan over the course of about three months, and I did not notice any difference in my daily health. However, I used to get bad headaches about twice a month, and since going vegan I've had maybe two in the past year. I also used to consistently get a terrible lingering cough after colds, but that hasn't happened since going vegan, and my colds (all two of them) have been so mild that they just felt like I was getting a cold... and then they would fade. So, although I don't feel more energetic on a daily basis, my general constitution seems to have been strengthened.

Maybe you're low on B-12, eatyourveggies? You might want to get tested. Gluten intolerance or some other allergy could also be a culprit.

Also, I understand that health is important, and is one good reason to eat a vegan diet, but as you mentioned, there is a lot more to it. Since you are committed to remaining vegan, you might try to focus on the other aspects--environmental, compassion, etc.--to keep your resolve strong. That's probably a no-brainer....

On the other hand, even if you decide to eat animal products on occasion, that's still a million times better than what most people are doing. Your actions would still have an overall positive effect on the world. Of course, I hope you remain vegan.

penfold
10-13-2003, 01:28 AM
no noticeable difference for me, either going omni-veggie or veggie-vegan (though i was young enough going veggie that i might not have noticed). i stopped getting athsma attacks around the time i went vegan, but that was approx the age a lot of people grow out of childhood athsma anyway so it may have been a coincidence.

although being vegan has not seemed to play a big part in my health, the way i eat definitely does. i've been healthiest and avoided colds best when eating a load of fresh fruit or veggies, including the hallowed daily carrot juice. i don't manage to eat like this all the time and i can't say i feel "full of energy" when i do, but i do feel healthier.

if you had noticed the difference going omni to veggie my first thought might have been creatine/creatinine - but not going veggie to vegan.

hope you find a way to feel better :)

Husky Corn Star
10-13-2003, 02:10 AM
as a vegan, my hangovers aren't as bad probably because I'm drinking more vegan organic alcohol ;)

ajveg
10-13-2003, 07:12 AM
i know this personally:(
i experimented with veganism i went vegan then omni quite a few times before i am now sticking to it. i dont know why peer pressure not knowing enough about animal rights striving to feel normal? i dont know but i use to have bad nightmare about dead animals and i use to feel sick the dairy didn't agree with me but i DO FEEL betterbeing vegan my taste buds come alive and i dont feel clogged up and sickly all the time :p

Beanqueen
10-13-2003, 07:47 AM
I get ill less generally, but then I have become more aware of my own health since becoming vegan so that could also be a reason although I think losing the dairy has helped with colds and coughs.

I still have IBS, which going vegan made no difference to :(
although when I am being strict about a raw food diet, then I have almost no problems with it.

veggiedyke
10-13-2003, 12:04 PM
I was a vegetarian for about 10 years before going vegan about a year and a half ago and I've definately noticed less colds and greater resistance to fighting colds if I do get them.

I'm also a long distance runner and have noticed much more energy when running and am much faster. I have no idea if I'm just growing as an athlete or if my diet has a lot to do with it. I'm sure it's a combination of those two factors.
Last week I ran the fastest and happiest marathon of my running career so I know that the veganism is not causing me harm (surely). I've noticed no decreased energy and perhaps even increased stamina and general vim and vigor since going vegan. I also think I'm a bit happier with life due to my more compassionate lifestyle.

Good luck eatyourveggies!, I hope you can figure out what exactly is going on.

Dandelion
10-13-2003, 01:34 PM
they told me i had "IBS" too :p but it's gone since i've become vegan


Originally posted by Beanqueen
I get ill less generally, but then I have become more aware of my own health since becoming vegan so that could also be a reason although I think losing the dairy has helped with colds and coughs.

I still have IBS, which going vegan made no difference to :(
although when I am being strict about a raw food diet, then I have almost no problems with it.

misanthropy
10-13-2003, 03:47 PM
My boyfriend used to get severe stomach cramps (the "doubled-over" painful kind) after meals. We thought it was my liberal-use of tomatoes (his previous allergy tests said he had a slight allergy to tomatoes*). After we both went vegetarian, his stomach cramps pretty much stopped. Turns out he just couldn't digest any form of meat properly.

After going vegan, I think he hasn't noticed anything different with his own health except I think his allergies are less severe with outdoor stuff.

* Yeah, we don't really pay too much attention to his allergies... he's allergic to dogs and especially cats but we've got 1 dog and 6 cats. HA! Plus we used to have a backyard FULL of ragweed at our last place...

cin
10-13-2003, 09:40 PM
id have to agree with you, eatyourveggies. my health improved a little after becoming vegan, because i had been having serious sinus/phleghm problems, most likely due to dairy, and i havent gotten anything anywhere near as severe as what i used to get since becoming vegan. actually, now that i think about it, im alot healthier being vegan, but that's really not saying much. i used to regularly get headaches after eating lunch, and those stopped around the same time (possibly cooincidently) as i became vegan. lately, though (i've been vegan since may of last year), my metabolism has taken a nose-dive. my food digests incredibly slowly compared to what it used to be, yet i'm not gaining any weight. i think i might actually be losing weight since i don't eat like i used to. my body doesn't seem to be recovering as quickly from anything anymore, either. my cuts heal slower and scar more, my neck's been stiff for months, and i didn't sleep one night and it took me almost a week to recover. as far as colds go, i haven't gotten anything serious, but they seem to be lasting ridiculously long. i got a cold a month ago and my throat still isn't completely clear.

noone
10-13-2003, 11:37 PM
In response to those who you're meeting who claim to be ex-veggies who just felt SOOOO terrible and as soon as they started eating hamburgers again they were fine, my answer is simply, THEY'RE FULL OF IT!!

I've ran into this type of person. They always have some excuse. It's all BS. These people either planned their diets very poorly or went into vegetarianism TRYING to fail, either consciously or subconsciously. They have preconceived notions that you need meat to be big and strong, and this sets them up for failure. They don't believe they can be healthy without meat, so they aren't. It's that simple.

Before I went vegetarian I had awful heartburn. I had a bowel movement 2, maybe 3 times a week. I got sick every winter. I couldn't ride a bike a mile, I slept 10 - 12 hours a night if I could. I had put on about 45 pounds in pot belly and preferred watching TV to even throwing a football around the yard.

Within weeks of going vegetarian, I started having regular bowel movements. My energy levels went up and my pot belly started slowly shrinking. I felt happier and less stressed.

Within weeks of going vegan, my heartburn went away (though I still take digestive enzymes), I lost what was left of my pot belly and am down to my previous weight +5 lbs (which is ok because I was very thin before), and I haven't even had a runny nose in the 2 1/2 years since I gave up meat. I swear I could swallow pure virus/bacteria cultures and not get sick,

My energy levels have dropped in recently months, but I believe that is because I've been lazy and have been eating more processed foods rather than cooking for myself. I've been taking this great herb called rhodiola which is MAGNIFICENT for energy and stress and it's helping a lot so I can endulge in the processed foods and still have energy. :)

At any rate, I don't trust those people who say that they just HAD to get back on meat. I think they're full of it.

Dandelion
10-14-2003, 12:14 AM
all the exveggies i've run into were vegetarians who didn't even really believe in what they were doing like you said. i've had a few conversations like "oh you're what? vegan? yeah i was once but i went back to chicken for the protein blah blah..." a little questioning usually shows that they werent vegan first of all and secondly were grossly misinformed...


Originally posted by noone
In response to those who you're meeting who claim to be ex-veggies who just felt SOOOO terrible and as soon as they started eating hamburgers again they were fine, my answer is simply, THEY'RE FULL OF IT!!

I've ran into this type of person. They always have some excuse. It's all BS. These people either planned their diets very poorly or went into vegetarianism TRYING to fail, either consciously or subconsciously. They have preconceived notions that you need meat to be big and strong, and this sets them up for failure. They don't believe they can be healthy without meat, so they aren't. It's that simple.
...

misanthropy
10-14-2003, 12:34 AM
Yes! Lack of meal-planning with ex-veggies for sure. I've met a few who also went back to meat eating for the "protein". Their veggie meals consisted mainly of JUNK food - chips, french fries, pop, etc.

I admit that the first time I went vegan I had VERY poor meal planning and I got pretty sick and run-down. I was 12, in grade 7 and really didn't have much information back in the day.

My diet for 6 months consisted of french fries, vegetable fried rice and the occasional salad or piece of tofu or a Nature's burger (that powdered stuff you mix with water... yup, they made that stuff that long ago). :o But mainly it was french fries and vegetable fried rice. I actually considered ketchup part of the fruit & vegetable food group! There was a health food store close by but I had no idea how to meal plan or what I needed. Plus I didn't have much money to buy stuff with.

I know better now though. :D

noone
10-14-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Dandelion
all the exveggies i've run into were vegetarians who didn't even really believe in what they were doing like you said. i've had a few conversations like "oh you're what? vegan? yeah i was once but i went back to chicken for the protein blah blah..." a little questioning usually shows that they werent vegan first of all and secondly were grossly misinformed...

Absolutely. If they were concerned about protein, why'd they go back to meat? The 2 most complete and bioavailable sources of protein are vegetarian - egg and whey (biproduct of cheese production). Both of these proteins, while not vegan, ARE vegetarian, and are far superior to meat.

bearhino
10-14-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Dandelion
all the exveggies i've run into were vegetarians who didn't even really believe in what they were doing like you said. i've had a few conversations like "oh you're what? vegan? yeah i was once but i went back to chicken for the protein blah blah..." a little questioning usually shows that they werent vegan first of all and secondly were grossly misinformed...

RIGHT ON! ive never gotten sick sense ive became a vegan, and i can do extreme things, that one would normally get me sick if i wasnt a vegan. and steal be healthy. in another words i have gotten a very strong immune system since ive became vegan.

and ive also noticed that those peaple are misinformed, like you said, and its mainly beacause they didnt eat the right way, to sustain a healthy vegan diet.

ajveg
10-15-2003, 07:34 AM
i agree when iw ent back to meat (it makes me ill to say it) i felt a lot worse i say i was misinformed but i couldn't have been that misinformed as i felt bad on the emotional front as well. i could never see my self going back to meat again i just couldn't i never use to brag about being a vegan to those who were as i suppose i felt to guilty to admitt i d gone backwards:embarr:

misanthropy
10-16-2003, 01:26 AM
Why I'm giving up vegetarianism after 8 years

Source & Discussion: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/11/204850/29

By danharan
Tue Oct 14th, 2003 at 07:44:09 AM EST

I have been vegetarian for 8 years, with a few forays into stricter diets and the occasional lapse and a few bits of meat eaten at family diners to keep the peace. While I clearly understood my reasons for being vegetarian when I started to eschew meat, for the past year and a half I have very honestly told people that inquired about my odd behaviour that it was only a matter of habit. It is a habit I am about to break. Here's why.

I was 20 when I became vegetarian. I cared about our planet and spent more time reading books than many spend in cathodic worship. Searching for books on the environment, I stumbled upon Diet for a New America in my local public library. Public libraries are wonderful places for unemployed 20-year-olds that haven't decided what institution of higher learning they would mortgage their future to attend. I skipped the first of the three parts of the book, which deals with animal welfare. Diet, I thought, was too important a matter to change on the basis of such emotional nonsense. The last two parts, dealing with health and the environment, were convincing: before finishing the book, I had sworn off meat and started to learn about such exotic foods as tofu and quinoa, convinced that I would live longer and healthier while minimizing my environmental impact.
However, I soon find out that people react very badly to vegetarians. Otherwise rational people might tell me I will turn green and die. In a cold Canadian climate, meat is essential. Everybody knows that. Sometimes, they leer at my plate, and launch into tirades about how much they like meat and how they could never "do it". When people aren't nicely volunteering such information, they are preemptively attacking me for my wicked ways.

While there are some militant vegetarians, most don't think they're superior, or even give a damn that you're eating meat, that you enjoy it, or think you could never live without it. Most won't say "moo" when you're having that steak or hamburger. They are not a threat, so why do some people feel the need to justify their choices? Can't we just "eat and let eat"? Most of the comments I heard were stupid, ignorant and boorish. Like telling the only black person at a party that you know some black people and even have some black friends, telling a vegetarian about how you could never give up meat (maybe even thought of it) just isn't kosher. And don't even think of asking about how we get enough protein or iron - another sure way to advertise your own etiquette deficiency. The etiquette is simple: unless the vegetarian is telling you how bad you are for eating meat - or how virtuous they are for not doing so, there's no need to dwell on the topic.

The longer I was a vegetarian (and the longer I studied diets) the more I realized how complex the issue was. My very rational decision to give up meat highlighted the irrationality of our society's relationship to food. After 8 years of dietary exile, one thing is clear: not only is our diet bad for our health, our environment or the animals, and it isn't even very tasty. When people say they like the taste of meat, I wonder if they ever eat anything else satisfying. Odds are better than even that their veggies, if something other than potatoes, are always served terminally limp, that their desserts are mostly fat and sugar, and their salad base - if they eat salads - is an uninspiring iceberg lettuce.

Our society has a strange love-hate relationship to food, and I came to realize that for many vegetarians and perhaps most vegans, the decision was an ascetic one. While a strong scientific case can be made for the validity of their diet in terms of health and environmental impact, it often lacks beauty.

Let me be clear about this point: while the diets of vegans and vegetarians often lacks beauty, the diets of most other North Americans almost always lack beauty. SAD is an apt acronym for the Standard American Diet.

So, why, if I believe that the vegetarian diet is scientifically and aesthetically superior, am I going to start eating meat again? (And please note, I am talking about the diet, not the people who practise it!)

First, I believe that superiority to be relative . Our knowledge of diet is too imperfect to make many final statements about what is best for the human body - and we may soon be able to accurately measure what is best for a specific individual. As for environmental impact, hunting and gathering has less impact than a vegan diet- and fewer animals may die from our encroaching on their territory. Given time, chefs will also devise ever more beautiful ways to prepare their dishes, whether or not they contain meat.

More importantly, vegetarianism has a very high social cost. The alienation borne by a vegetarian will often do them more harm than the food they would consume to keep the peace or remain unnoticed. I'm not just thinking the occasional Thanksgiving lapse to please the parental units. There's also the job interviews, dates, sales call, and every day social engagements.

I've tried to understand the reasons for this social cost, even to vegetarians that don't want to make a big deal of their diet. Sometimes - well, ok, often - people are simply stupid, and will just assume you're some kind of weirdo and won't want to talk to you (interesting people usually have the opposite impulse). But refusing food from someone who cooked it surely is horrible karma.

And then there's the reasons we'd usually rather not talk about, starting with gender. A vegetarian woman is less of a problem - "they've always been more emotional". But for a man, barbecuing eggplant and portobello mushrooms is a sure way to have people question your sexual orientation. Real men eat steaks.

Food also helps define our ethnic and even religious identities. No self-respecting Acadian could pass on rapure pie, which Anglos accurately nicknamed frenchman's glue. Gooey-grated potatoes, pressed of their juices, baked in chicken stock- Yum! Turkey at Thanksgiving and Fish on Fridays, Kosher or Halal, all our major religions impose rules or conventions about food. Transgression can alienate you from your ethnic or faith community.

Our culture needs change, and getting this much negative attention puts me at a disadvantage. Worse, a personal 'vegetarian witness' is not the best way to encourage people to have a more sensuous experience with food, or challenge the centrality of meat in our diets.

Dandelion
10-16-2003, 01:57 AM
So essentially this guy gives up cause he's afraid of being outcasted? You would think that after discovering the "the irrationality of our society's relationship to food" he would do something about it. Instead he gives up and goes back. I'm surprised he even had the motivation to write the article!
oh and this line got me:

...But refusing food from someone who cooked it surely is horrible karma.

was that an attempt at cuteness?

silly silly...

eatyourveggies
10-16-2003, 06:01 AM
i missed the first few lines that stated that this was from another source....
i thought i was reading a direct post from missantropy...
i was like

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

penfold
10-16-2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Dandelion

was that an attempt at cuteness?

silly silly...
i'm intrigued that you picked out that line, Dandelion. this was one of the lines i felt most sympathy with. i don't go in at all for talk about karma, usually. however, the times when i find being vegan most difficult of all happen at the kitchen tables of thoughtful and well-meaning friends and aquaintances who have spent hours preparing something but not quite understood exactly what vegans eat. or in restaurants in foreign countries where vegans just don't happen - the chef is anxious to please and impress but has no idea why the dishes he has poured all his skill and experience and the best local ingredients into are not good enough. food is such a powerful way of communicating - welcome to my country, my city, my home - this food is who we are, and i made this just for you.

i frequently find myself in the kind of situation where, ok...it's not that i am not in control, but in order to be in absolute control - to make sure that a small quantity of milk or egg or cheese doesn't enter my bloodstream - i have to refuse food from the person that cooked it. for me, the 'not letting it get into my bloodstream' is very much not the point, although i would much prefer if it didn't. i ask myself...what's the best thing i can do here?...what is going to increase the sum total of happiness in the world most - eating or not eating? and the answer is not usually terribly clear. in these situations i suspect that refusing is just force of habit for me, rather than the upholding of some universally good and right principle.

i am sad that the writer of this article came to the conclusion he did, but on this point i really do feel his pain :umm:

VeganMegan
10-16-2003, 07:33 AM
I have to agree with Dandelion. I read this article and concluded that the main reason this person went back to eating meat is because he didnít want to be alone, different, an outcast. People will like me more if I eat their food. If I donít eat their food people wonít like me. They wonít love me. Iíll be alone. I must fit into the norm and be part of the crowd.

Our culture has a huge issue about fitting in and doing what the other person is doing. And donít you dare be different, not even a little different or youíre doomed to be alone, unloved and unwanted.

If a person couldnít eat meat because they were allergic to it (or even for religious beliefs) no one would say a word or try to get the person to eat it. But, when someone finds it ethically wrong to eat meat it forced upon you time and time again.

I donít eat meat because I believe that it is wrong. I could not imagine eating a cute fuzzy little animal. It just sickens me. Yes, I have friends and relatives that always want to make me food and stuff but I politely tell them No, thank you. I donít think there is anything wrong with standing up for what you believe in. Youíre not going to get negative Karma for telling someone youíre not going to eat their food. :rolleyes: Thatís just silly. I donít have a problem with telling people no because my friend and my family KNOW that Iím vegan and donít eat that stuff so they need to respect that and they should expect that I will turn down their food. I think itís pretty rude that whenever I go to a relativeís house that Iím harassed about my lifestyle choices or they try to trick me into eating animal products. Now that is rude!

I donít care whatís on TV or who is doing what or if people like me or not. I just donít care. Iím me doing the best that I can do and living as environmentally friendly as I can.

WoaÖ I sure did ramble on. . . anyway, yeah, this guy just wants to be part of the herd.

penfold
10-16-2003, 07:52 AM
just to be clear...i also agree with what dandelion said - i think this guy has been overwhelmed by what he calls the 'social cost' of vegetarianism. and i think that is a shame.

Originally posted by VeganMegan
Youíre not going to get negative Karma for telling someone youíre not going to eat their food. :rolleyes: Thatís just silly.
i totally agree. you're not going to get any kind of karma from the situation, as karma does not exist :p

VeganKen
10-16-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by penfold
i'm intrigued that you picked out that line, Dandelion. this was one of the lines i felt most sympathy with. i don't go in at all for talk about karma, usually. however, the times when i find being vegan most difficult of all happen at the kitchen tables of thoughtful and well-meaning friends and aquaintances who have spent hours preparing something but not quite understood exactly what vegans eat.

Addressing this one point, because I too find it interesting :), this seems to be related to the reason that certain Buddhist monks will eat meat. Since they beg for their daily meal they will accept whatever is offered. It has more to do with the offering itself than what is exactly offered.

Addressing his article as a whole, I have little sympathy. When has life been about living up to other peoples values? I know societies expectations can be difficult to go against. But boo hoo. I would have more respect for his opinion if he'd just been honest and said that society was offering him a priviledged status and he was taking it, animals be damned. At least that's honest.

VeganMegan
10-16-2003, 08:42 AM
They're also talking about this article at Vegan Porn (http://www.veganporn.com/documents.pl?mode=show&docid=1052270659&forumid=1).

penfold
10-16-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by VeganKen
It has more to do with the offering itself than what is exactly offered.
Ken, yes - that's the sort of idea i was aiming at :)

misanthropy
10-16-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by eatyourveggies
i missed the first few lines that stated that this was from another source....
i thought i was reading a direct post from missantropy...
i was like

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Heh heh! Nope, would never happen. ;)

misanthropy
10-16-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by VeganMegan
I donít care whatís on TV or who is doing what or if people like me or not. I just donít care. Iím me doing the best that I can do and living as environmentally friendly as I can. Amen sister! :)

Emiloid
10-16-2003, 02:46 PM
Hmm... it's too bad that guy "skipped the first few chapters" of Diet for a New America regarding animal welfare. I used to resist the animal rights argument myself because it seemed less logical than other reasons, but then I realised I was fooling myself and trying to act/seem more tough-minded than I am (and than anyone needs to be). Animal rights and welfare are HUGE reasons to go veggie. People should never be ashamed to show compassion and ethical concern for the treatment of other living things.

That said, I don't think the writer actually had a good justification for going back to meat. Like others pointed out, he just seems overly afraid of not fitting in. Also, I think he may need a refresher course in the environmental impact of consuming animal products. He mentions that "hunting and gathering" has less impact than being veggie, but that is only true when the population of humans is sparse. Plus, the fact is, in most countries (basically all Westernized ones) food is not collected through hunting and gathering, so it's not like by going back to meat he is reducing his impact on the environment.

What really bothers me about this article is that I've read several like it before. People generally aren't interested in reading about people's conversion from omni to veggie. They'll only read about that with interest if they are already veggie or are considering doing it themselves. You also never read articles by people who are reaffirming their beliefs and commitment to veg*nism. In other words, it bothers me that most people only want to read about why people have gone back to "normal" (aka meat-eating)--it reaffirms their belief that vegetarianism is a fad and/or doesn't work for most people.

This guy, like all of us, had a chance to change people's opinion simply be living and existing as a happy, committed vegetarian. If more men were vegetarian, he wouldn't have to worry about whether people think its "manly" or not--so by removing himself from the ranks of male vegetarians, he strengthens the misperception that bothered him in the first place. He's also become one more example of a failed vegetarian--which non-veggies seem to pay more attention to anyway. He's like a poor person who falls into a life of crime because it's easy and expected of them--whereas if he resisted that lifestyle he could better himself AND set a good example for others to follow--in time eliminating the assumption that poor people are criminals.

In other words, we have to live the lifestyle we hope others will eventually follow. Otherwise, society will stangnate.

Emiloid
10-16-2003, 02:47 PM
Woah. That was a long rant! :blush:

Dandelion
10-16-2003, 03:05 PM
and as always much appreciated.
i love reading your posts Emiloid :heart:


Originally posted by Emiloid
Woah. That was a long rant! :blush: