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Dandelion
01-26-2008, 02:08 PM
Ok this is a dedicated thread to products that have minute amounts of animal ingredients or were processed using animal ingredients.

Mahk recently made some interesting points in the What Kind of Contraception Do You Use? thread:
OK, I'm back from Googling around. You (all) are right, it is indeed the latex part of a condom and not the lubes or spermicides as I had initially thought, which is typically not vegan. However, if we are expected to scrutinize whether animal products, casein is just one of them, are used in the production of latex condoms, the list of other similar uses in the production of other rubber and latex products is huge:

- Rubber tires used on not some but all cars, trucks, buses, bicycles, airplanes etc. routinely have animal compounds in their production. By a strict definition of vegan not only could we no longer use these ourselves but also all goods transported by these means.

- Rubber soled shoes, even if the rest of it is "vegan".

- [Cut and pasted from one site]: "rubber gloves, condoms, balloons, rubber bands, urinal bags, glue for reclosable envelopes (to name a few)."

- [Cut and paste from another (http://www.nyallergy.com/latex.php) site]:

"Table 1: Commonly used products containing natural rubber latex or dry rubber latex:

Anesthesia
Rubber stoppers on medication
Breathing circuits Syringe stopper
Endotrachael tubes Tourniquet
Epidural catheter injection adapter Ultrasound cover
Induction masks Warming blanket
Nasal-pharyngeal airways Wheelchair tire
Oral-pharyngeal airways Obstetrical/Gynecological
Reservoir breathing circuits Cervical cap
Teeth protectors Cervical dilator
Ventilator tubing Condom
Dental Diaphragm
Bite block Douche bulb
Dental dam Surgical/Urological
Orthodontic elastic Arterial and venous catheter
Prophy cup Implants
General Medicine Instrument mat
Bandages for burn Intra-aortic balloon
Blood pressure cuff Surgical glove
Colostomy pouch Surgical mask
Elastic bandage Texas catheter
Electrode pad Urine bag and strap
Enema retention cuff Wound drain
Esophageal dilator Other
Esophageal protective cover Adhesives
Examination glove Baby bottles nipples, pacifiers
Eye dropper bulb Carpet backing
Face mask with elastic band Elastic in underwear
Finger cot Household gloves
Foley catheter Motor vehicle tires
Hemodialyzer Paints
Hot water bottle Raincoats
Latex injection parts Rubber bands
Rubber sheet, pillow Rubber toys

Shoes "

Basically anything that is rubber or latex.

If you ask me, this falls under the "as far as is possible and practical" exception clause of our definition of vegan (http://www.vegansociety.com/phpws/index.php?module=faq&FAQ_op=view&FAQ_id=1).

I for one will continue to use cars, buses, bicycles etc. and consume goods transported by them. Scrutinizing the production methods of condoms alone, and not all the many other uses of rubber and latex, I personally think is being hypocritical.

Peace all.

We also touched upon Vegan Outreach's stance against "personal purity" in this thread: How Vegan? Ingredients vs. Activism (http://www.plantbasedpeople.com/showthread.php?t=7093) where they advocate ignoring the modicum of non-vegan ingredients to otherwise make veganism look too difficult. I myself recently got the Vegan Riot Act handed to me when i poked fun at people who strive for vegan sugar ( http://flickr.com/photos/d4v3r5/2143524083/ ).
Natalie's Dad take a critical animal rights view of the whole boycott stance of veganism in his article "Why I gave up veganism, and why you should too (http://www.plantbasedpeople.com/showthread.php?t=11900)"

This comes up time and again and it's contentious issue. My own stance on this has shifted and migrates back n forth all the time.
Let's explore the fine line of what it means to buy a vegan product, examples of such conundrums and how that affects our movement and our goals.

tin can
01-26-2008, 05:27 PM
I can never quite decide about soap when out of the house - for example, the liquid soap in the toilets at work. I did get a little tiny bottle of vegan liquid soap to carry around with me, but only actually carry it around intermittently.

Dandelion
01-26-2008, 05:39 PM
I can never quite decide about soap when out of the house - for example, the liquid soap in the toilets at work. I did get a little tiny bottle of vegan liquid soap to carry around with me, but only actually carry it around intermittently.
But wouldn't NOT using liquid soap just encourage places to keep using it since it wouldn't deplete as quickly? :D I know we already have a liquid soap thread (thanks for bringing this one up here) so what difference do you think it makes if you carry around your own soap? If it makes no real difference is your veganism some sort of personal preference issue or something? Or is it just something that's in a grey area but you opted to make the effort to carry around your own soap? Just wondering where vegans are coming from on such things and trying to see past my own personal biases.

mishka
01-26-2008, 07:04 PM
I use the soap in public places because to carry around my own soap (and other similar products in similar situations) would be exhausting, possibly causing me to feel like a prisoner of my own ethics. When I first became vegan, I really stuck true to my beliefs for two years, but faltered when I felt like my beliefs were creating an exceptionally difficult way of life. I'd rather now falter from time to time on certain things than cause myself to throw my hands up and give up veganism entirely.

This means I also use standard condoms. I also don't check the origins of sugar, or if the vegetables I eat caused the death of bunnies in the vegetable fields during harvest. I feel that what I do is tremendous in comparison to the average person and I feel proud of calling myself vegan despite using the dish soap or hand soap at work and in public washrooms, or using condoms with casein.

downwithapathy
01-26-2008, 08:51 PM
But wouldn't NOT using liquid soap just encourage places to keep using it since it wouldn't deplete as quickly? :D I know we already have a liquid soap thread (thanks for bringing this one up here) so what difference do you think it makes if you carry around your own soap? If it makes no real difference is your veganism some sort of personal preference issue or something? Or is it just something that's in a grey area but you opted to make the effort to carry around your own soap? Just wondering where vegans are coming from on such things and trying to see past my own personal biases.
I think liquid soap in public restrooms is here to stay. I'm much more inclined to believe that if using one's own soap is to have any effect on soap purchasing, it will save a small amount of potentially nonvegan liquid soap and (if enough people do such) perhaps delay the purchase of new soap.

With that said, a lot of busy places run out of soap before they shut down for the night. In that case, we'd just be helping one more person wash his or her hands with soap. :)

I don't carry around my own soap. The reason is primarily because I don't want to advertise myself as different. I don't want to give the impression that veganism makes life difficult and inconvenient. Also, a lot of cheap stuff isn't tested on animals. I'm not sure why that is, but I've found it to be the case. :) So... I think there's greater risk of a negative result of my carrying my own hand soap (like coworkers thinkin' I'm weird) than a positive one. :uhoh:

eta: Wow, that was goofy.

Chijou_no_seiza
01-26-2008, 09:02 PM
Sonja, I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree. Perhaps for men carrying around their own soap would do less good by showing that being vegan is difficult and inconvenient. But most women frequently carry purses everywhere with them.

When I bring my own soap I simply take my purse into the bathroom with me (like a woman would do if she was on her period and needed "supplies"), finish my business in the stall and then pour out my own soap before I leave the stall. Nobody views me as weird or different, and it's not inconvenient to me but something I prefer to do. Granted if I forget my soap I will wash my hands with what is there. I like the fact that I can use less animal products even if it's simply a tiny amount.

Honestly it seems to be something that is "do-able" for women. I would argue that your point would more likely be an appropriate "vegan exception clause" for men.

Obliviously being vegan is about doing what you feel is the most correct action. But to me it's something that takes so little time that it's worth the "extra effort" of unscrewing the bottle and zipping up my purse.

ETA: Also back in junior high and highschool there was NEVER any soap in the bathrooms, so it turned out to come in handy that I always had my little bottle to save the day.

tipsyvegan
01-26-2008, 09:03 PM
i can with all certainty say that most of the hospital grade stuff listed on that list originally posted by mahk no longer contains latex. (but are all tested on animals)

most hospitals are phasing out nearly all latex products :)

i have a latex sensitivity, and work in the operating room... so i pay allot of attention to what is and is not latex containing.

but no doubt that regular condoms (durex, trojan... ect) are animal tested... or so ive always assumed...???? anyone know?

tipsyvegan
01-26-2008, 09:05 PM
and i also carry my own vegan soap. i dig it out of my purse and pour some on my hands right there at the sink. i dont think anyone thinks im wierd for it... or i guess i just never noticed if anyone noticed...im quite oblivious, really :D

Emiloid
01-26-2008, 09:30 PM
As a woman who never carries a purse, it would be very strange and inconvenient to carry extra stuff like soap around. Even if I did carry a purse, I'm not sure I would carry my own soap. It just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I would. By the way, if I saw someone else using their own soap in a public restroom, I wouldn't think twice about it. Of course, I'm speaking for myself.

I realize I'm probably less strict than some people. I don't worry about refined sugar (though I prefer it unprocessed)... I use non-vegan condoms if I can't easily find vegan ones... I have no qualms about using medicines that are non-vegan (unless there's an effective natural remedy or vegan version), and... here's the kicker: I generally don't ask about bread ingredients if I'm in a restaurant or someone's house. Shocker!

To me, being vegan is partly about setting a good example. There's a fine line between being as vegan as possible and making it seem completely bizarre and inconvenient--for yourself or others. Each of us will define that fine line differently. For me, it's more important to be "pure" in my own home, where I can control things. When I'm out in public, I am more lenient because I already have less control over the things I consume (whether soap or soup), and I am more conscious of setting an example to others. I try to make it look somewhat easy, or at least not like it's an insane inconvenience to be vegan. Of course it involves sacrifice, and you're naturally going to stand out in certain situations, but it doesn't have to seem obsessive.

BTW, I'm not saying that if you bring your own soap, or don't take medicines when you could really use them that you're being obsessive! (Unless you're risking your life, maybe.) We're all different, and if anything I applaud your decision. :)

vegankitty
01-26-2008, 09:45 PM
As a woman who never carries a purse, it would be very strange and inconvenient to carry extra stuff like soap around. Even if I did carry a purse, I'm not sure I would carry my own soap. It just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I would. By the way, if I saw someone else using their own soap in a public restroom, I wouldn't think twice about it. Of course, I'm speaking for myself.

I realize I'm probably less strict than some people. I don't worry about refined sugar (though I prefer it unprocessed)... I use non-vegan condoms if I can't easily find vegan ones... I have no qualms about using medicines that are non-vegan (unless there's an effective natural remedy or vegan version), and... here's the kicker: I generally don't ask about bread ingredients if I'm in a restaurant or someone's house. Shocker!

To me, being vegan is partly about setting a good example. There's a fine line between being as vegan as possible and making it seem completely bizarre and inconvenient--for yourself or others. Each of us will define that fine line differently. For me, it's more important to be "pure" in my own home, where I can control things. When I'm out in public, I am more lenient because I already have less control over the things I consume (whether soap or soup), and I am more conscious of setting an example to others. I try to make it look somewhat easy, or at least not like it's an insane inconvenience to be vegan. Of course it involves sacrifice, and you're naturally going to stand out in certain situations, but it doesn't have to seem obsessive.

BTW, I'm not saying that if you bring your own soap, or don't take medicines when you could really use them that you're being obsessive! (Unless you're risking your life, maybe.) We're all different, and if anything I applaud your decision. :)

I already carry so much stuff in my bag.Like Emiloid , I use soap that is in restrooms , in my home , its vegan-though since i've been getting skin infections-my doctor told me to wash with anti-bacterial soap every day for a week , then once a week after.I haven't been able to find vegan anti-bac soap-so i'm going to use regular (unless someone knows of a vegan alternative. I don;t always ask about bread either (usually because it doesn't occur to me.)I also take stuff like anti-biotics and my anti-addiction drug , which is definitely not vegan , but until i'm done with it , there is no alternative.Not only am i sure it was animal tested , it has an animal ingredient in it. I also am strictest in my own home where i can control things more.

downwithapathy
01-26-2008, 09:53 PM
vegankitty: There might well be antibacterial soap that is accidentally vegan. Just look for one that isn't tested on animals and go from there. :)

eta: Have you tried places like Bath and Body Works?

Are any of their products more specific than "finished product not tested on animals?" I haven't bought from them in years.

KaliMama
01-26-2008, 10:41 PM
I'm really looking forward to following this thread. At 15 months, I still feel like a n00b to veganism. Honestly, sometimes I compromise on ingredients because I can't afford not to. Mr. KM is much more hard-line than I am, and he has a harder time advocating because of it. I'm just saying.

Thanks for the links in the OP, dandelion.

Mahk
01-26-2008, 11:25 PM
Wow. Thanks for the thread Dandelion. I'm glad my post generated some thought. I too have a flexible view that changes over time. For what it's worth here is my current stand:

I have complete control of what I put in and on my body when at home, but when I step out the door into the big, bad, omni world I have to deal with the fact that not everything is in my control. I'm a guy, I don't carry a "man purse", and I do use public restrooms including their soap. I also eat vegan foods from omni companies and restaurants knowing that the utensils/cookware used to prepare my food were washed with animal tested and/or animal ingredient soap (even at my "vegan" restaurants, I bet). Do some vegans actually bring a small supply of vegan dish soap to there favorite restaurants and ask that their dishware/cookware/utensils be washed with their special soap? To me the soap used for my hands and my plate/fork/cookware in a restaurant amount to the same thing; out of my control.

In restaurants/bars/taxis I also will sit in a leather chair/stool if there are no other ones.

The "vegan sugar" now being sold at WFM is a good example, IMO, of us vegans being taken advantage of by clever marketers preying on our guilt. My research shows that depending on where you live (in the US, that is) 75% of sugar is accidentally vegan anyways (no bone char filtration). For all I know WFM is just re-packaging normal garden variety sugar that they've verified is not bone char filtered (and fair trade) and charging us a hefty mark up.

I only buy "Florida Crystals" (vegan) for home use but don't panic over the source of the sugar in my Grey Poupon mustard I put on my Tofu Pops "hotdogs". Sushi rice as prepared in restaurants often has a very small amount of sugar added as well, and I don't worry about that either. Hidden sugar is found everywhere, even for a guy like me who doesn't have much of a sweet tooth and only has sweets on rare occasions; pretzels, breads, crackers, salad dressings, ketchups, mustards (e.g. Grey Poupon Dijon), salsas, tomato pasta sauces, pizza doughs, bagels, canned vegetables (e.g. almost all peas), soups, champagnes, “typical” peanut butters, etc., none of which are considered “sweets”. I don't scrutinize the filtration method of the sugar found in these foods just as I don't scrutinize the filtration of an even more ubiquitous ingredient: water! Yes, water too is sometimes filtered through bone char (and bone chips) at all levels from the municipal water supply company all the way down to the individual, home use Brita-style carafe. (Brita was for example, they actually state coconut husks, not bone char, but Aqua Science brand, for example, and others make some with bone char).

Dandelion
01-27-2008, 12:24 AM
The "vegan sugar" now being sold at WFM is a good example, IMO, of us vegans being taken advantage of by clever marketers preying on our guilt. My research shows that depending on where you live (in the US, that is) 75% of sugar is accidentally vegan anyways (no bone char filtration). For all I know WFM is just re-packaging normal garden variety sugar that they've verified is not bone char filtered (and fair trade) and charging us a hefty mark up.
Yeah ya know, i thought alotta sugar was produced without bone char anyways. Why Whole Foods would suddenly put out a "VEGAN CANE SUGAR" which is probably the same as their regular "CANE SUGAR" is weird to me.
I would have to conclude that there is a big enough of a demand to warrant such a product which is even weirder! :alien:

I think if we did look at the processing practices of alotta vegan food products we'd find animal byproducts coming in contact with them. Just look at the "processed on shared equipment" notices they put on for allergies. Imagine all the ones they don't tell vegans. I mean there is the "i do what i can with what i know" thang but that means to me we don't know enough and it would behoove us to find out. To me that is a colossal waste of time and energy that could be better spent at the root cause instead of the side effect. Then again who am i to judge who should do what with their time.

The last time i was at Chicago Diner i ordered my usual St. Peters beer and the server said they no longer carry it because it aint vegan. First of all i aint worried about no isinglass and second why should they when on their menu they offer dairy and eggs! What a weird product to take a stance on. Now i know alotta vegans want their "vegan booze" and work hard to find such things out and that's all well and good but where is the line?! If we are to expect people to understand our rational argument shouldn't we have one? Then again the mass audience aint one to appreciate such an argument. Heck i'm forgetting why i'm vegan in the first place. Someone remind me? :)

grog
01-27-2008, 12:57 AM
if I did have a purse, I would carry some soap around. not only for veganishness, but since all I use at home is vegan naturally soaps, I find commercial soaps to be both gross in scent, and in feel.

i guess I could carry a purse...

Dandelion
01-27-2008, 01:03 AM
I'm really looking forward to following this thread. At 15 months, I still feel like a n00b to veganism. Honestly, sometimes I compromise on ingredients because I can't afford not to. Mr. KM is much more hard-line than I am, and he has a harder time advocating because of it. I'm just saying.

Thanks for the links in the OP, dandelion.

Heyya KrishnaMama yer welcome. :) 9 years later i'm probably less "vegan" than ever in terms of the products i buy, ingest or use. I work hard to advocate it but not so hard in making such every molecule stays outta my body. It's a shame i think that there is a whole buncha people too afraid to call themselves vegan for not achieving that level of veganositude (greater than my own) they feel would justify it all while absolutely agreeing with the basic vegans tenets. (sentences like these make herbi say i'm on my word train. WOOWOO! ;)) For stricter vegans I say fine, go sweat over bone char and fish bladders but don't you dare stand in-between me and my beer! ;)

Long story longer it's not gotten any easier for me and i question my own beliefs daily! When i do start to settle into an idea i know from experience this is a bad thing. Red flags pop up and i just have to question it. Makes my friends nervous i think and i hope i'm not making yall too nervous.

Oh, and I know "hard-liners" may seem like they are having a harder go at advocating but i do have to admire them for it. If they really have thought about the issue they are just taking an honest stance and i say bravo! If they are reading the 'this. is. how. you. be. vegan.' book then they are not thinking for themselves and are fallible when advocating the vegan position. More than people who are vegan i want people who can advocate a strong rational position. Vegan Outreach had some quote one of their volunteers said about the differences between being a fully committed vegan consumer or being a vegan advocate (making more vegans through leafletting). Assuming we're banking on the power of boycott (which ND argues against from the AR stance) which would make the bigger difference?

Dandelion
01-27-2008, 01:04 AM
i guess I could carry a purse...
nauthiz has a cute tumbuktu man purse. Maybe get some tips from him. :D

Dandelion
01-27-2008, 01:14 AM
When I first became vegan, I really stuck true to my beliefs for two years, but faltered when I felt like my beliefs were creating an exceptionally difficult way of life. I'd rather now falter from time to time on certain things than cause myself to throw my hands up and give up veganism entirely.


i used to say "i'm vegan for the long haul" (that feels dogmatic to me now). What i meant by that was i would rather bend the rules than to give up on them entirely. There's the whole slippery slope argument but i have yet to slip quite so far.

Dandelion
01-27-2008, 01:26 AM
I think liquid soap in public restrooms is here to stay. I'm much more inclined to believe that if using one's own soap is to have any effect on soap purchasing, it will save a small amount of potentially nonvegan liquid soap and (if enough people do such) perhaps delay the purchase of new soap.

Oh yeah, good point! :)





I don't carry around my own soap. The reason is primarily because I don't want to advertise myself as different. I don't want to give the impression that veganism makes life difficult and inconvenient. Also, a lot of cheap stuff isn't tested on animals. I'm not sure why that is, but I've found it to be the case. :) So... I think there's greater risk of a negative result of my carrying my own hand soap (like coworkers thinkin' I'm weird) than a positive one. :uhoh:

Personally I totally think carrying around soap is a weird thing especially when the extension of that could spiral down a vegan blackhole. Then again veganHowYaLike. I can't worry about how that makes vegans look just as i hope vegans wouldn't police me. Once i start thinking down the "what am i doing that makes veganism look hard" route i can apply that logic to a number of situations that would certainly lead me into a slippery slope. Therefore i must find the most basic rational common sense argument that resonates with me that i can comfortably advocate without feeling like i'm trying to cut corners.

KaliMama
01-27-2008, 01:49 AM
9 years later i'm probably less "vegan" than ever in terms of the products i buy, ingest or use. I work hard to advocate it but not so hard in making such every molecule stays outta my body.

That's the direction that I find myself headed as well. Mahk makes some good points about the impossibility of achieving the latter. Which doesn't mean that to strive for it is pointless. I think we each find a way and a degree of striving for that ideal which makes a difference and does not threaten our sanity or ability to relate to others. Or not.


It's a shame i think that there is a whole buncha people too afraid to call themselves vegan for not achieving that level of veganositude (greater than my own) they feel would justify it all while absolutely agreeing with the basic vegans tenets.

And by extension the more hard-line vegans are possibly alienating them? The whole buncha people, that is.



Long story longer it's not gotten any easier for me and i question my own beliefs daily! When i do start to settle into an idea i know from experience this is a bad thing. Red flags pop up and i just have to question it. Makes my friends nervous i think and i hope i'm not making yall too nervous.

Again, I am glad to see this thread. I guess I've been looking for a good place to jump in with something more than a helpful link or a joke. I'll let you know when you make me nervous.


Oh, and I know "hard-liners" may seem like they are having a harder go at advocating but i do have to admire them for it. If they really have thought about the issue they are just taking an honest stance and i say bravo! If they are reading the 'this. is. how. you. be. vegan.' book then they are not thinking for themselves and are fallible when advocating the vegan position.

Mr. KM falls into the first group, he is one of the most thoughtful (in the literal sense) people that I know. He does have a harder time for his hard-line vegan stance, and I admire him for it as well.

Compassion is where it's at for me as a vegan, and it doesn't end with compassion for animals. It's about compassion for our fellow humans as well, vegans and omnivores.

ETA: My Big Project (and New Year's Resolution!) for 2008 is a blog that I'm working on for young people who are new to veganism or considering it. I guess that's why I'm on the compassion thing here. I want to encourage them, not alienate them, but also nudge them to think more deeply about what they're eating and why. I'll just say I :heart: this thread one more time and then we can move on.

panthera
01-27-2008, 03:27 AM
The only reason I would carry vegan soap around would be to support vegan businesses or products. What are we worried about, anyway, lanolin? See, I don't even know! But it's not very high on my list of things to concern myself with. On the other hand, I think if I saw someone else do it, I'd assume it was for particularly dry skin. I used to bring my own soap to work when I was a vet tech, before I was vegan, because washing my hands all the time left them so dry. I guess I still don't like using anything but all-vegetable oil soaps, but I didn't really think of it in terms of it being a vegan thing.

When there's more of a critical mass of vegans then we can worry about stuff like that, all together. That's my take on things. Of course for those who do make the extra effort for yourselves, more power to you!

And I like the emphasis on the main points of veganism, and have gotten frustrated when people wouldn't call themselves vegan for some piddling reasons. Well maybe they're not so piddling to others, but if someone doesn't look for all the non-vegan ingredients, but they do look for whey, then I really wish they would still declare themselves vegan. They probably would start looking for things more & more as a natural evolution, anyway. Instead, they still call themselves ovo-lacto, and call vegans militant. I would add an emoticon but I'm in the quick reply box.

btw, as I scanned the list in the OP, this caught my eye:
"Teeth protectors Cervical dilator" I think the word wrap made some interesting juxtapositions.

tin can
01-27-2008, 06:25 AM
<------ male, no purse!

FWIW, the bottle of soap that I got is ridiculously small, so that it fits in my pocket. My thinking is twofold:

1) Granted, not using liquid soap in public places is only ever going to have a minuscule effect. However, anything that I do with regard to attempting to reduce animal suffering etc. is going to have a tiny, tiny effect - and that doesn't mean that it is not worth trying. Therefore, I shouldn't be put off from making an effort to achieve minute positive outcomes. The question is whether the outcome is worth the effort. In this case I am undecided - on the one hand, it doesn't seem to take a lot of effort to carry around a little bottle of soap, but on the other, sometimes it does seem like a lot of effort! At the moment, I don't tend to take it with me, but up until the end of last year, when I drove trains, I stuck it in my 'train-driving bag' and used it in my meal break - in other words it wasn't a case of making a big deal of getting this 'special' soap out in an office or anything.

2) Less importantly, using soap which has almost certainly got animal products in it, especially when it is heavily perfumed as our soap at work is, just makes me feel icky. And my peppermint soap is much nicer!

I must stress that this is not something that I have been worrying about endlessly! The main reason I am vegan is to help animals and because I feel disgusted about the way that we (humans) use them. Having got in the habit, the idea of eating meat, or eggs or milk or whatever now seems particularly retch-worthy, and it (to a lesser extent) the same with soap.

One final point is that on the few occasions where I have got out my bottle of soap on training courses etc, it has generally started a conversation about why I am vegan and all that, and people are almost always interested, not scornful.

Mahk
01-27-2008, 10:42 AM
I wouldn't worry about other people's scorn at the restroom sinks but as others have pointed out people thinking that I'm weird and that veganism is ridiculous would concern me. I suppose I could lie and say I'm allergic to common soap, but I don't want to live my life having to lie.

Not carrying around any kind of bag/purse/briefcase makes carrying around any kind of liquid a bit problematic. Having thought about it I came up with an idea that part of my morning routine could be to scrape a few shavings of my vegan bar soap, using a dedicated vegetable peeler say, into a reusable sandwich sized zip-lock bag that I'd carry around in my back pocket. No, I don't (currently) do this, but it was a thought.

Panthera, all soap is made from fats/oils. A common and cheap fat is tallow (beef), so most soap is made from such fats. "Sodium [I]tallowate" would be an example if soap had ingredients. Lanolin is the reason I decline the free hand sanitizer clothes I see now at the entrances of many food stores near me. It's common in "wet wipes".

I don't drink much beer, but have axed my favorite, Bass Ale, due to isinglass or whatever. I'm not too picky and can find vegan Grlosch in the pop top container (not sure about the normal bottles' vegan status) on the rare occasion I order beer. German lagers are also safe I hear because it is illegal there to use isinglass for some reason, I doubt animal welfare related.

I guess I'm a bit hypocritical about worrying about some filtrations and not others, so maybe my beer stance will change some day.

I think a good title for this thread would be, perhaps, "Where should we draw the line?"

Mahk
01-27-2008, 11:12 AM
Yeah ya know, i thought alotta sugar was produced without bone char anyways. Why Whole Foods would suddenly put out a "VEGAN CANE SUGAR" which is probably the same as their regular "CANE SUGAR" is weird to me.

I wonder if it's actually exactly the same stuff too, but at this early stage they are conducting a test to see what sells better in regards to the marketing of words like "vegan", "organic", "fair trade", "No GMOs", "locally grown", "bio degradable packaging", "country of origin has very little child slavery" etc. [:p] Once they figure out what their customers will fall for, er, I mean "care about", then magically there will be only one form of sugar they sell that will have all the "important" qualities. ;) Just a theory.

Oatmeal Girl
01-27-2008, 11:23 AM
I find that my vegan beliefs are extending more and more beyond animals to include my local community. These days, I'm much more inclined to support a small local business that offers a few vegan (even "accidently vegan") things rather than a major chain with more vegan options (i.e. a locally-owned beauty supply store vs. Whole Foods "Whole Body" section). I used to think that it was of the utmost importance to support any mainstream "veganizing" as well as pure vegan stores- like natural foods sections in chain groceries, Silk soymilk (from Dean Foods), or internet orders from Food Fight. Now, at this point in my life, I feel like it's more important to support local farmers, food producers, grocers, and business owners, even if they only offer vegan goods by accident. If I had the choice between buying a vegan dietary supplement from a local pharmacy vs. ordering it from Pangea and supporting a vegan business, I would purchase it from my local pharmacy, to keep my dollars local and reduce the environmental costs of shipping.

I don't know if that means that I'm "less vegan" than I used to be, but if it does, I think I'm making up for it by being more socially and environmentally-conscious.

Milkweed
01-27-2008, 06:04 PM
Just wanted to stick my head in and say that I'm so impressed by how very civil this thread is! I love that everyone here can have respectful conversations without getting horribly offended when someone disagrees with them and start behaving like children. It seems like at so many other forums (both vegan and non-vegan related) disagreements quickly devolve into name calling sessions, and I have yet to see that here. So, yay VRF!

VegeTexan
01-27-2008, 06:11 PM
Dam All You Part-Time only-when-it's-convenient vegans.

http://bestsmileys.com/signs3/14.gif

vegankitty
01-27-2008, 06:45 PM
vegankitty: There might well be antibacterial soap that is accidentally vegan. Just look for one that isn't tested on animals and go from there. :)

eta: Have you tried places like Bath and Body Works?

Are any of their products more specific than "finished product not tested on animals?" I haven't bought from them in years.

I have a non-animal tested one but i'm not sure of the ingredients.I'll look at Bath and Bodyworks though.

Mahk
01-27-2008, 08:31 PM
Vegankitty, some say triscolan, the common ingredient in anti bacterial soap:

A) only works if left on the skin for 2 minutes or more, not common for hand washers like me at least.

B) when exposed to chlorinated water turns into chloroform and other nasty stuff.

I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to those rumors but I thought I'd point out that according to The Body Shop (http://thebodyshop-ca.stores.yahoo.net/teatreeoilsoap.html), not that I'm recommending them, tea tree oil in their soap acts like a natural anti-microbial agent. I buy Trader Joe's house brand of tee tree oil soap mostly because it is 100&#37; vegan and dirt cheap like me :) ($1.49 for two bars IIRC).

I see they have a NYC store. (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&om=1&msa=0&msid=113004048650495608919.000001120fc9b0e5f47f9&ll=40.82628,-73.561707&spn=1.328022,1.642456&z=9)

nauthiz
01-27-2008, 08:40 PM
nauthiz has a cute tumbuktu man purse. Maybe get some tips from him. :D

Sure. Just follow these easy steps:

1. Get purse.
2. Put stuff in purse.
3. Carry purse.
4. Accuse anyone who calls it a "man purse" of being sexist. :D

KaliMama
01-27-2008, 09:01 PM
I :heart: manbags. I wish my man carried one so I could put my stuff in it.

vegankitty
01-27-2008, 09:18 PM
Vegankitty, some say triscolan, the common ingredient in anti bacterial soap:

A) only works if left on the skin for 2 minutes or more, not common for hand washers like me at least.

B) when exposed to chlorinated water turns into chloroform and other nasty stuff.

I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to those rumors but I thought I'd point out that according to The Body Shop (http://thebodyshop-ca.stores.yahoo.net/teatreeoilsoap.html), not that I'm recommending them, tea tree oil in their soap acts like a natural anti-microbial agent. I buy Trader Joe's house brand of tee tree oil soap mostly because it is 100% vegan and dirt cheap like me :) ($1.49 for two bars IIRC).

I see they have a NYC store. (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&om=1&msa=0&msid=113004048650495608919.000001120fc9b0e5f47f9&ll=40.82628,-73.561707&spn=1.328022,1.642456&z=9)

Thanks , I'll try it.(TJs here is ridiculously crowded-have to remember to go when they open.)

Miso Vegan
01-27-2008, 10:15 PM
Tea tree is antimicrobial, and so is lavender and orange, among other essential oils. So there are many options besides triclosan (although Purell anti-bacterial hand gel uses alcohol, not triclosan).

And by the way, while tea tree oil is antimicrobial, killing bacteria, fungi, and viruses, triclosan only kills bacteria.

panthera
01-28-2008, 01:08 AM
Mahk, thanks for the info. The whole issue is bothering more, now that we're discussing it.


up until the end of last year, when I drove trains, I stuck it in my 'train-driving bag' and used it in my meal break

this sounds like a perfect way of doing it. In fact, in fact, I can imagine myself keeping some at a desk or locker at work if I were working these days. Mahk, I would think that carrying around a baggie of soap slivers, particularly in a back pocket, would get messy pretty quickly, becoming a gelatinous mass.


I wonder if it's actually exactly the same stuff too, but at this early stage they are conducting a test to see what sells better in regards to the marketing of words like "vegan", "organic", "fair trade", "No GMOs", "locally grown", "bio degradable packaging", "country of origin has very little child slavery" etc. [:p] Once they figure out what their customers will fall for, er, I mean "care about", then magically there will be only one form of sugar they sell that will have all the "important" qualities. ;) Just a theory.

I used to wonder about this in terms of greenwashing, and decided that even if I were being duped, I still wanted to make the statement that it was important enough of a consumer issue that they ought to pay attention to it, and that at least knowing that would encourage some companies to actually become more green.


Now, at this point in my life, I feel like it's more important to support local farmers, food producers, grocers, and business owners, even if they only offer vegan goods by accident.

I think this is great especially if you let them know that it's the vegan-ness of the product that is important to you!


It seems like at so many other forums (both vegan and non-vegan related) disagreements quickly devolve into name calling sessions, and I have yet to see that here. So, yay VRF!

Yes, I think VRF does this better than any other forum out there! :kiss:


Vegankitty, some say triscolan, the common ingredient in anti bacterial soap:

A) only works if left on the skin for 2 minutes or more, not common for hand washers like me at least.

B) when exposed to chlorinated water turns into chloroform and other nasty stuff.

The overuse of triclosan is thought to be responsible for a lot of antibiotic resistance; I'd be surprised if it's all that effective these days, or at least it wouldn't protect against the more dangerous bacteria.

I'm really surprised that a doctor would recommend it (unless maybe they recommended a specific soap that has another kind?), considering that it actually can clear away beneficial bacteria, leaving us vulnerable to the not-so-nice ones.

Tea-tree oil is indeed supposed to be naturally anti-bacterial & anti-fungal. I don't know if it's the same deal, clearing away beneficial bacteria. I'm more inclined to trust it, though.

LuC
01-28-2008, 02:34 AM
I :heart: manbags. I wish my man carried one so I could put my stuff in it.

i love man bags too! i bought the mr. his first man bag about 5 years ago and now he has more bags than i do. :p

bumblebee
01-28-2008, 09:46 PM
My husband carries a "briefcase". Our 22 year old son carries a "satchel". :)

vegankitty
01-29-2008, 09:24 AM
i don't know if this would be a vegan exception , but i know i feel guilty about it: cat food. I tried vegan food-they won't eat it.(Except the Ami dry , which is very spendy. I know you can take your kitties to get urinary ph levels if they are vegan , but even if my kitties would eat vegan food , i don't think i would subject them to monthly vet visits. Cats are carnivores and i feel that if i want to properly take care of them , i need to feed them meat.I do feel guilty and hypocritical doing it though.

Emiloid
01-29-2008, 10:07 AM
Oh yeah... pet food. I have two non-vegan cats. :umm:

Mahk
01-29-2008, 12:36 PM
Mahk, I would think that carrying around a baggie of soap slivers, particularly in a back pocket, would get messy pretty quickly, becoming a gelatinous mass.

Yuck. I see what you mean but I was hoping the air tight seal would keep moisture out. I'm not sure if body heat alone would make it yucky, but out of curiosity I'm going to go test some. Be back in a few minutes...

Mahk
01-29-2008, 12:48 PM
OK, I tried it out. Of course I can't speak to all bar soaps but I was using my regular, Trader Joe's Tea Tree Oil.

I was expecting my vegetable scrapper to make slivers like it does on a carrot; it didn't. It produced more of a flake like powder similar to the consistency of my KAL brand nutritional yeast. Still quite usable though. I put some between my totally dry palms and rubbed vigorously for half a minute or so. It stayed solid! It would seem to me that the friction between my palms is much higher than normal body heat so I'm thinking back pocket use would also stay solid, but who knows.

vegankitty
01-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Growing up we had a metal container with holes that you could put the ends of soap into and they would meld into a new bar.

Chijou_no_seiza
01-29-2008, 02:51 PM
Oh! Mahk, they have that weird "butter slicing" contraption, you put in half the soap stick and then the "perfect" pad comes out. MAYBE You could cut yer soap in half, and then use the little device to chop it into small little soap rectangles! (See picture below)

I could work... :silly:

Mahk
01-29-2008, 08:09 PM
I've never seen one of those before but I'd worry it may not be strong or sharp enough for cutting through a hard bar of soap. Soap doesn't "cut like butter";) Thanks for the diagram though. :)

I just tried a cheese slicer. Same results: a powdery flaky consistency. Even a sharp cutting knife had almost the same results. I think it's my soap:confused:

grog
01-29-2008, 08:11 PM
use a hot knife.

or a wire

Miso Vegan
01-29-2008, 09:04 PM
Welp, I'm convinced. Vegans are freaks.

Chijou_no_seiza
01-29-2008, 09:09 PM
I was joking people, joking!

sheeeesh.


:p

nauthiz
01-29-2008, 09:13 PM
Welp, I'm convinced. Vegans are freaks.

http://www.justachat.com/forum/image.php?u=6142

grog
01-29-2008, 09:19 PM
I was joking people, joking!

sheeeesh.


:p

nice photoshopping btw. slow day at work? :silly:

Chijou_no_seiza
01-29-2008, 09:23 PM
nice photoshopping btw. slow day at work? :silly:

hahaha, you know me too well.

I did not have access to Adobe, only paint!

La Végétalienne
01-29-2008, 09:29 PM
Hey nauthiz, shouldn't that be: \/36@/\/ PHR33k ? ;)

Miso Vegan
01-29-2008, 09:52 PM
srsly.

nauthiz
01-29-2008, 11:28 PM
Hey nauthiz, shouldn't that be: \/36@/\/ PHR33k ? ;)

GTFO! (http://www.veganfreaks.net/forum/) :brood:

KaliMama
01-29-2008, 11:51 PM
Looking at that flashy thing up there makes me want to stab my eyes out.



ETA: The brooding emoticon is so cute I want to use it all the time...

:brood: :brood: :brood:

We should probably go back to talking about putting soap in your pockets now.

La Végétalienne
01-29-2008, 11:53 PM
GTFO! (http://www.veganfreaks.net/forum/) :brood:

haha yeah, I thought of them when I wrote that. (I found their board before I found this one, but the people here seemed nicer. Does that redeem me, nauthiz?)

La Végétalienne
01-29-2008, 11:56 PM
Looking at that flashy thing up there makes me want to stab my eyes out.

Agreed. But maybe I shouldn't say so too loudly for fear of the wrath of nauthiz. :rolleyes:

nauthiz
01-29-2008, 11:58 PM
DO NOT TAUNT THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS!

La Végétalienne
01-30-2008, 12:02 AM
Remind me again how world-destroying fits with vegan priciples? :p Oh, wait, this is the Vegan Exception Clause thread, after all!

KaliMama
01-30-2008, 12:02 AM
Pfft. The real DoW could make prettier flashy things than that.

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 12:07 AM
Remind me again how world-destroying fits with vegan priciples?
I don't touch the animals, just the planet they're on.

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 12:08 AM
Pfft. The real DoW could make prettier flashy things than that.
Since when is the abject supposed to be pretty?

La Végétalienne
01-30-2008, 12:22 AM
I don't touch the animals, just the planet they're on.

But, but, wouldn't destroying their planet just to satisfy your urge to destroy be akin to squashing an anthill for the same reason? (and we'll even say that all the ants are out doing whatever it is that ants do for fun, so none of them got squashed)

Okay, so maybe it's not techinically not vegan, but it's still Not Very Nice. Although the image of a bunch of floating-in-space animals is kind of funny...

panthera
01-30-2008, 01:56 AM
OK i can see the "freak" part of it, but what is 1337? And yes, that is a bad flashythingy. Who says "bad" is bad, though, eh, Nauthiz? :umm:

And I too love the broodyface :brood: :yes:

This one's good too :argue:

but back to Mahk's soap. I meant when you put the slivers back in the bag, they'll be watery & eventually gelatinous. Were you thinking of using a flake per wash? You must be pretty dextrous. That sounds weird. You must be pretty fastidious. That sounds weird too. Ummm, hey, I was very impressed by the disappearing bar of soap image! :D

btw I always think the drooly face is for "makes me want to puke" :drool: instead of "I want, I want!"

KaliMama
01-30-2008, 02:45 AM
OK i can see the "freak" part of it, but what is 1337?

from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leetspeak):



Leet (written 31337, 1337, and l33t), or Leetspeak, is a written argot used primarily on the Internet, which uses various combinations of alphanumerics to replace Latinate letters. The term is derived from the word "elite", and the usage it describes is a specialized form of shorthand. Different dialects of leet are found on different online forums.

Initially, the word leet was used as an adjective, to primarily describe the behavior or accomplishments of others in the community. In that usage, Leet generally carries the same meaning when referring to either the game prowess or, in original usage, hacking expertise of another person. From adjective form its use then expanded to include use as an expletive in reaction to a demonstration of the former qualities. With the mass proliferation of Internet use in the 1990s into the 21st century, Leet has since become a part of Internet culture and slang.[1] Leet may also be considered a substitution cipher, albeit with much variation from user to user.




btw I always think the drooly face is for "makes me want to puke" :drool: instead of "I want, I want!"

I just had a Warwak flashback.

JasperKat
01-30-2008, 09:33 AM
I thought Mahk was kidding about carrying soap slivers around. Hmmm. If I saw someone fishing a flake of soap out of a plastic baggie they carried in their pocket I would probably assume it was an allergy/medicated soap thing. If someone told me they were doing it to avoid the non-vegan soap, I would think that was weird.

But don't listen to me, I make pretty big allowances for what I call the "PITA factor", and that includes eating veggie burger buns without quizzing the waitress and not looking too closely at my alcohol ingredients.

-JK

vegankitty
01-30-2008, 10:18 AM
Another exception-medication. Though i have taken myself off my bipolar meds i do take another drug that has animal by-products and was animal tested.(Though i took it once before as part of a clinical trial so at least i was willing to be a human test subject.)There is no alternative to this particular drug , so until i'm ready to get off it , i make an exception.

And if i saw someone using their own soap i would assume they had sensitive skin or allergies.

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 10:41 AM
I used to carry a soap sliver around. I kept it in a little aluminum tin like those ones for lip balm. It took some maintenance but wasn't too bad - every day or two I'd have to leave it out with the lid off so that the soap could dry out.

Dugan
01-30-2008, 10:44 AM
<ducking for cover> I mostly don't bother with soap. I give my hands a long rinse, with vigorous rubbing. I've been told by a surgical nurse that the vigorous scrub is actually more effective than soap without rubbing. Only if I'm in the midst of food handling do I bother with a very careful washing with soap.

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 10:47 AM
I gotta confess also, that I am not a big handwasher. If I don't think I've gotten anything on my hands while using the toilet, I may or may not rinse with water. I do use soap if I have to. My skin dries out super-quick with soap.

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 10:49 AM
My mom didn't teach me to wash.

My mom taught me not to pee on my hands.

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 10:50 AM
My mom didn't teach me to wash.

My mom taught me not to pee on my hands.

Yay mom!

Now if I could get my 8 yr old boy to not 'dribble'...

Dugan
01-30-2008, 11:18 AM
My ultra-considerate (in the bathroom anyway) male SO avoids the dribble by sitting down. Before him, I never really thought about if men could pee while sitting. He mentioned it one day a few months after moving in when I'd commented on how nice it was that he had such clean bathroom habits.

bumblebee
01-30-2008, 11:26 AM
I remember teaching my little boys to "boing it" after peeing. I wonder if they still do that. :laugh:

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 11:39 AM
My ultra-considerate (in the bathroom anyway) male SO avoids the dribble by sitting down. Before him, I never really thought about if men could pee while sitting. He mentioned it one day a few months after moving in when I'd commented on how nice it was that he had such clean bathroom habits.

Cade (my son) had a stage where he would 'blot' on a piece of tp. I had a friend whose Indian husband sat to pee. Cultural difference?

Dugan
01-30-2008, 12:45 PM
Poor guys... first we talk about our privates and now we're talking about theirs! :laugh:

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Mine's loving the attention.

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Privates party! Ooops...

grog
01-30-2008, 03:16 PM
sitting won't really guarantee no dribble. it tends to wait until your zipping it up, then surprise you and the floor and your drawers.

stegan
01-30-2008, 03:30 PM
no matter how much you shake and dance,
the last drop always ends up in your pants.

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 03:44 PM
sitting won't really guarantee no dribble. it tends to wait until your zipping it up, then surprise you and the floor and your drawers.


no matter how much you shake and dance,
the last drop always ends up in your pants.

Thanks guys...

What if you sit, shake and blot? (Shake Rattle and Roll)

nauthiz
01-30-2008, 03:50 PM
What if you sit, shake and blot? (Shake Rattle and Roll)
Then the other guys in the bathroom get really creeped out.

Dugan
01-30-2008, 04:37 PM
Even though it doesn't involve a wide stance?

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 06:47 PM
:snort:

Emiloid
01-30-2008, 06:50 PM
OK, folks! Bathroom party is over! What-say we split that section into its own little thread, hmmm?

sitting_vegan
01-30-2008, 06:52 PM
:looks for the 'chastized noobie poster' smiley:
:rolleyes::happy:

Mahk
01-30-2008, 07:17 PM
but back to Mahk's soap. I meant when you put the slivers back in the bag, they'll be watery & eventually gelatinous. Were you thinking of using a flake per wash? You must be pretty dextrous. That sounds weird. You must be pretty fastidious. That sounds weird too. Ummm, hey, I was very impressed by the disappearing bar of soap image!

This was all hypothetical folks.

My soap slivers would be individual one time use size and paper thin. I'd pull one out of the zip lock bag but none ever gets returned so the contents stays dry. This product has the idea down, but I doubt its vegan, so I wanted to make my own:

http://www.branders.com/img/logoed_Paper_Thin_Soap_In_Container/Health_Safety/Paper_Thin_Soap_In_Container-12302_zo.jpg

Emiloid
01-30-2008, 08:44 PM
Hey, what about handi-wipes? It's not the most environmentally sound option, but it's an option. Isn't it? I don't know... does anyone make a vegan version?

Mahk
01-30-2008, 08:53 PM
Some of those contain lanolin, so watch out. Also as an emergency cleaning method I suppose they'd work, but they are no substitute for real soap and water, IMO. Sure the alcohol kills germs but the dirt on your hands doesn't magically get sucked up, 100%, into the cloth. It just gets swirled around some. ;)

panthera
01-30-2008, 11:18 PM
those look like breath strips, not soap! the lip balm tin sounded good...

downwithapathy
01-31-2008, 12:33 AM
I used to have some pre-made, local, vegan soap slivers. They were ok. I'd prefer carrying them to liquid soap.

I used to carry hand sanitizer at my old job (which involved shared equipment and lots of germs). Regularly, the top would twist itself just enough to leak a little in my bag.

Mahk
01-31-2008, 12:34 AM
They do look like breath strips. If you google "paper thin soap" you can find different versions, but none that I could find that are vegan.

Maybe a bar of veg glycerine soap would slice better. Hmmm....

vegankitty
01-31-2008, 07:19 AM
I used to have some pre-made, local, vegan soap slivers. They were ok. I'd prefer carrying them to liquid soap.

.

Yeah , i've seen samples of natural soaps(some vegan) that are slivers.And they are often free.

panthera
02-01-2008, 09:36 PM
this is reminding me of those "Irish Spring" soap commercials where an apparently Irish gentleman whittles off piece of Irish Spring to show the stripes or whatever. And in my mind's background, I hear a leprechaun singing, "magically delicious!" Eww. I never liked Lucky Charms anyway. I'm a "synthetic" thinker can't you tell.

KaliMama
02-02-2008, 12:37 AM
Okay, sugar. Now that I know that the majority of "regular" sugar is likely accidentally vegan, do I keep buying the stuff that costs three times as much?

I'm just not feeling the whole soap discussion. I make liquid soap at home from the scraps left over from bar soap. I also make "wet wipe" thingies that I keep in the car. Beyond that, I don't sweat it.

I'm a really small-time consumer. I am the reusing/repurpose/recycle queen, and make nearly all of my food from scratch. So the impact that I'm gonna make at the grocery store is minimal. I'd rather focus my energies where they may be felt, rather than running myself ragged trying to live some impossible "pure" vegan lifestyle.

The sugar thing is bugging me, though.

ETA: That sounded a little crankier than I intended. I'm not trying to insult anyone, really.

vegankitty
02-02-2008, 08:06 AM
I also make "wet wipe" thingies that I keep in the car.

How?I want to make some myself so i don't have to buy 'em.

La Végétalienne
02-02-2008, 11:18 AM
Okay, sugar.

haha I was really confused about whom you were addressing... until I got to the end of the post. :silly:

:thumbsup: to your post in general and +1 to vegankitty's query!

bluedawg
02-02-2008, 08:08 PM
KrishnaMama, i can speak only for myself of course, but i buy sugar at whatever store i'm at. in other words, if i'm at the co-op when i'm shopping and need sugar, i buy the tan fair trade stuff in the bulk baggies. if i'm at Mainstream Grocery Store when i need sugar, i buy what they have. i don't feel like i'm screwing up or being a bad vegan if i buy Mainstream Grocery Store sugar, but i will admit that i *do* feel kinda good when i buy the "nice sugar" at the co-op. :silly:

Emiloid
02-02-2008, 09:58 PM
That's how I feel about sugar, too. Not terrible when I buy regular white sugar, but much better when I get a definitely vegan alternative. :) Eventually I'll probably get only the "good" stuff.

LesMiserablesLove
02-02-2008, 10:32 PM
I actually don't know how to find vegan sugar. Does it say vegan? I've been buying beet sugar and organic cane sugar from my local health food store in the hopes that it isn't made with bone char.

jaxin
02-02-2008, 10:59 PM
I just buy turbinado/raw sugar and whirl it in the processor if it needs to be more fine. There are a few resources online that list which brands are vegan and which aren't, try gooogglin'.


On the bathroom soap tip, anywhere that I will be regularly I put one of those tiny bottles of Dr Bronners for handwashing. Like, I have one at work in the bathroom, and if I were to have an S.O. or a good friends house I was at all the time, I stash one there. Otherwise I so rarely use a public bathroom that I don't worry about it.

Emiloid
02-02-2008, 11:00 PM
From what I know, beet sugar is vegan because it has no need for charcoal filtration to make it white. I can't say the same for organic beet sugar. In fact, the cynic in me would say they probably use bone charcoal to filter it because either 1) it's only used in processing, so it doesn't count or, 2) they use "organic" bone charcoal to filter it. However, I don't actually know what they do, so take my comments with a grain or two of salt!

KaliMama
02-03-2008, 12:56 AM
I may just start all of my posts from now on with, "Okay, sugar." ;)

To make your own wet wipes, cut a roll of paper towels in half crosswise (a big old serrated bread knife works.) Now you have two short rolls. Remove the cardboard tube from the middle so that you can pull the sheets out from the middle. Now put your soap solution (I like the recipes on this page (http://ezinearticles.com/?Make-Your-Own-Wipe-Solution&id=118618)) in a shallow bowl. Lay the short roll of paper towels in the solution and let it sit until it soaks it all up. If you have a leftover wet wipe container to recycle, great. If not, you can cut an "x" in the lid of any plastic container to pull the sheets through.

I keep a bottle of soap solution around and in a pinch, I'll just squirt some onto a handful of paper towels and put them in a plastic bag. That works well if you don't have room in your bag for a bigger container as well. Or maybe instead of carrying soap slivers. :blank:

You can do this with any kind of cleaning solution, obvs. When Shiva was a pup (before he had all of his vaccinations) I kept very diluted bleachy ones around for wiping his feets after walks.

Thanks for all the replies re: sugar. Mr. KM and I will have to sort that one out for our house, but I don't have a problem with using the less expensive sugar that's (probably?) 75% likely to be vegan, especially since we moved and the co-op is a half hour drive away now instead of a few (walkable) blocks.

Mahk
02-03-2008, 01:18 PM
Very cool ideas KrishnaMama, thanks! I'm thinking adding common rubbing alcohol to the recipes might enhance both the anti-bacterial aspect as well as the quickness of drying aspect. For those who possibly oppose using compounds on the skin that aren't also edible, one could perhaps use vodka or Everclear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)) (which is essentially just double proof vodka)

Is the inedible aspect of petro-chemicals such as Vaseline (also a bone char filtered product, by the way) also the reason why some people oppose its use on the skin? Or is the use of all "plastics" in general what is opposed? I've never understood this. Anyone?

I wonder how many of the "petro-chemical free" cosmetics come in containers that aren't plastic? ;)

Emiloid
02-03-2008, 01:35 PM
If you want to discuss petroleum jelly, please take the discussion back to the Vegan Alternatives (http://www.plantbasedpeople.com/showthread.php?t=11756) thread, where it was discussed in detail around early December. (As you might remember.)

Dandelion
02-03-2008, 01:59 PM
If you want to discuss petroleum jelly, please take the discussion back to the Vegan Alternatives (http://www.plantbasedpeople.com/showthread.php?t=11756) thread, where it was discussed in detail around early December. (As you might remember.)
or a new thread even! :)

vegankitty
02-03-2008, 06:19 PM
Boykitty bought bread he thought we could both eat but it has whey in it. He hasn't eaten any-i'm the bread eater in the house.My current loaf is almost done and the loaf with whey is headed for the trash. Since i don't always ask about whey in bread when i'm out , i'm thinking it shouldn't go to waste and i should eat it. on the one hand , i hate to waste it.(its past its sell-by date so i don't feel comfortable giving it away). on the other hand , i feel this might be a slippery slope.

Chijou_no_seiza
02-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Yes it is slippery.

But if it doesn't bother you (which I'm assuming it doesn't too much, since you don't ask while out) I would say eat it. What good does it do to waste it?

Just be extra careful next time, and pray to the vegan cow and pig gods and you'll have repented. :silly: Seriously though, not everyone is perfect, and you'll just be contributing to a landfill or compost heap and wasting your money.

For example: I hastily bought a lip balm from dessert essence and it had beeswax. I had already used and and thought I would just throw it away, but it didn't make any difference I had already supported the damage, and the only thing throwing it out would do is make me feel better. I had to tell myself "bee's aren't gross, it's the industry I'm against" before I was "comfortable" with using it. Thankfully it's almost gone, and I've made sure to buy the vegan stuff this time. But the point is, now I will never take it for granted again. It's a learning processes, even veterans have to relearn sometimes.. Cows aren't disgusting and neither is their milk, it's the pain and suffering that is.

I'm just babbling now, sorry!

vegankitty
02-03-2008, 06:40 PM
I don't ask when i'm out because i rarely get bread in meals away from home-i can only think of one time when i ate these yummy veggie burgers that were vegan and then later i realized i hadn't asked about the rolls. So whey does bother me-but not like cheese or milk would.

JasperKat
02-04-2008, 08:57 AM
Just MHO, but I would eat it. What good does it do to throw it out? Your money's been spent, tossing it is just creating waste.

I count stuff like that as "exception clauses". If my mother in law makes me muffins that have honey in them, if I order a burrito and they forget to leave the cheese off, if hubby or I miss an ingredient and bring something home that we discover has egg in it, I usually eat it and check more closely next time. I have some limits, like I definitely won't eat anything that has meat in it, and once when Mr Kat made some dumplings that were mostly egg (like a quiche) I couldn't make myself finish them. I'm also a bit of a hypocrit, because I will almost always send something back if I'm eating with omnis that I would have eaten if I were alone. I don't want to give them the idea that it's "no big deal" and that it would be okay to serve me dairy or egg in the future.

-JK

Dugan
02-04-2008, 11:52 AM
on the one hand , i hate to waste it.(its past its sell-by date so i don't feel comfortable giving it away). on the other hand , i feel this might be a slippery slope.
Dog treats? That way, it isn't going to waste, but you are not eating it yourself. That's what I did with some of my non-vegan stuff after I went vegan.

vegankitty
02-04-2008, 07:24 PM
Dog treats? That way, it isn't going to waste, but you are not eating it yourself. That's what I did with some of my non-vegan stuff after I went vegan.

I was thinking that.Bonnie's not vegan anymore anyway , and i'm sure she'd eat it. Especially with peanut butter!

Dugan
02-04-2008, 08:01 PM
:annoyed: Y'know... Dugie normally loves peanut butter. I finished a jar yesterday. As I so often do with food containers, I put it on the floor for him to have fun licking clean. Would he touch it? No. I left it out all day. The cats took some unenthusiastic tastes.

Miso Vegan
02-04-2008, 11:39 PM
How dare he?!

VegeTexan
02-04-2008, 11:54 PM
I just had to try a little experiment for myself. I put a dab of peanut butter on my finger. Parker, my male cat loved it. Casey, my female, wasn't at all interested.
Thus, either one out of two cats agree, peanut butter good
or this might say something about females (at least of the feline persuasion)
Obviously more research is needed.

downwithapathy
02-04-2008, 11:57 PM
I just had to try a little experiment for myself. I put a dab of peanut butter on my finger. Parker, my male cat loved it. Casey, my female, wasn't at all interested.
Thus, either one out of two cats agree, peanut butter good
or this might say something about females (at least of the feline persuasion)
Obviously more research is needed.
Willow likes peanut butter, as did both of my doggiesssss in the past. I pretty much assume all dogs like peanut butter. Willow surprised me. :)

panthera
02-05-2008, 02:42 AM
Willow likes peanut butter, as did both of my doggiesssss in the past. I pretty much assume all dogs like peanut butter. Willow surprised me. :)
Dog stereotyping! :p
Seriously, I love it when cats eat peanut butter. It takes so long for them to get it down, doing that smacking-the-lips-except-it's-the-palate-not-the-lips thing!

Dugan
02-05-2008, 07:31 AM
I pretty much assume all dogs like peanut butter.
Me too! It's great for stuffing a Kong to keep them amused. And he DOES like PB - but apparently not from the jar. Picky, picky.

vegankitty
02-05-2008, 07:41 AM
Peanut Butter is how i sneak meds to Bonnie. She caught on though and licks around the pill now.

Dugan
02-05-2008, 12:11 PM
There is no sneaking pills to Dugan, or any of the other LGD's I've had. For Dugie, he chews everything. You can give him a sesame seed and he will chew it several times. On the other paw, I've had cats that if you waved the pill near food, they'd gobble it right down.

NutLover
02-10-2008, 10:18 AM
Being a new vegan myself, here's my two cents....

I have slowly learned in the past month or so what to look for as far as ingredients go, however...In the beginning days of my veganism...a few products slipped into my kitchen that had milk, whey, whatever...in them. I felt although I know they should not be eaten, I felt more compelled that the animals that had been used to create the milk would have sacrificed pain and suffering in vain...so I usually use the product and not waste it. Then it's just a waste, I'm not into wasting any kind of food.

....just sayin.

I'm currently in the process of weaning out all cosmetics, shampoo...etc etc that are not vegan, but alas...I"m not going to throw it all out and waste. Time and knowledge will get me where I need to be.

cheers.

vegankitty
02-10-2008, 11:55 AM
I've been vegan a year and i still have non-vegan shampoo-i bought a huge bottle right before i went vegan.And now i have to teach boykitty what to look for when shopping , so he doesn't buy more bread i can't eat. (sidenote-he was very excited because he found a raspberry and cream granola that was made with soymilk :smitten: )

panthera
02-11-2008, 12:05 AM
hey nutlover, I think most vegans do that...either give stuff away or just use it up and buy the vegan version from then on. You're in good company!

Vegankitty, that is SO CUTE that he was so excited! :)

nauthiz
02-11-2008, 08:50 AM
4 years later, I still have some non-vegan stuff that I haven't used up yet.

My leather work shoes were finally starting to show their age, but a couple weeks ago I go them re-soled instead of buying new shoes. At this rate, I'll probably be wearing them until I'm old enough to get away with wearing nothing but slippers.

LuC
02-11-2008, 09:02 AM
I don't think that is a bad thing. Why uneccessarily create more garbage when you do not need to.

nauthiz
02-11-2008, 10:09 AM
Exactly. And the synthetic material they use to make so-called "vegan" shoes is probably made of petroleum, anyway.

Trilobites and dinosaurs = NOT VEGAN.

JasperKat
02-11-2008, 10:42 AM
4 years later, I still have some non-vegan stuff that I haven't used up yet.

My leather work shoes were finally starting to show their age, but a couple weeks ago I go them re-soled instead of buying new shoes. At this rate, I'll probably be wearing them until I'm old enough to get away with wearing nothing but slippers.

I have leather shoes that I wear to work at the animal sanctuary. I've had them for over 5 years and although they are pretty beat up from being covered in cow poo and mud, they seem to be indestructible. I take them home, rinse them off and they're good to go for another round. No use pitching them, I'm not going to buy another pair of shoes just to ruin them.

-JK

gladcow
02-11-2008, 10:45 AM
I still have my pregan leather hiking boots. no reason to throw them out, I'll probably use them forever. I did get rid of some shearling slippers my mother-in-law gave me. I just couldn't wear them anymore. Someone at the second hand store will get use out of them, though.

sitting_vegan
02-11-2008, 11:37 AM
I also still have leather hiking boots (waterproof) and my slippers-I have seen mice sneaking in my room to harvest bits of wool for their nests. Eventually there will be none left for my feets. :p

VegeTexan
02-11-2008, 12:06 PM
I have seen mice sneaking in my room to harvest bits of wool for their nests. Eventually there will be none left for my feets. :p

Spoken like a true vegan.

mamaquilla
02-11-2008, 12:08 PM
:o

VegeTexan
02-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Being a National Park Service Ranger, I have to put up with a bit of leather. Our uniform belt is leather and I haven't been able to find a non-leather belt that looks the same (it has embossed pine cones on it.) The one I have will have to last me until I retire, it's my only leather item.

I do buy non-leather shoes that look like my uniform shoes.

I wear the round summer ranger hat, it's made of straw. I don't wear the round winter ranger hat, it's made of felt (crushed animal fur stuff.)

panthera
02-11-2008, 11:16 PM
you folks wear straw hats? teehee. sorry, no disrespect intended, I just have a funny picture in my head...

shananigans
02-12-2008, 10:02 AM
I wear the round summer ranger hat, it's made of straw. I don't wear the round winter ranger hat, it's made of felt (crushed animal fur stuff.)

Felt isn't vegan? WTF, I thought it was synthetic? :confused:

Miso Vegan
02-12-2008, 10:26 AM
Sometimes, but when it's "real" it's from wool.

VegeTexan
02-12-2008, 12:03 PM
you folks wear straw hats? teehee. sorry, no disrespect intended, I just have a funny picture in my head...

Here is the 'straw' hat.

4520

it does have a leather hatband, I don't wear it too often.

nauthiz
02-12-2008, 12:13 PM
Synthetic felt can't easily be shaped into something like a hat. I'm not sure it can create a fabric that's rigid enough to hold its own shape, either. It'd work for a beret, but I'm pretty sure most hat styles require wool felt.

JasperKat
02-12-2008, 04:22 PM
Here is the 'straw' hat.

4520

it does have a leather hatband, I don't wear it too often.

I do love a man in uniform :kiss:

-JK

mamaquilla
02-12-2008, 04:32 PM
VT, I LOVE your furry face, yummmmmy ;)

TruStar23
06-18-2008, 02:09 PM
Since I don't have all day, to do so, I didn't read every post in this thread (or even close)...But, I was directed here, after posting about carrying my own soap, in my introduction 'story', so I do have a response to some things....

I do carry my own Vegan soap, everywhere that I go (I need soap, everywhere that I go, because I am severely germaphobic). (I'm a bit of an odd-ball, though, because, I go to the extent of carrying my own water, for hand-washing, as well ). I have absolutely NO problem with being seen as different!!!...I know that I'm fantastic...And, if anyone disagrees, well a pox to them!!!
Plus, I feel that, if others see my soap, and, actually question me about it, it can be educational to them, and I can, further have a positive effect, on the world!!! :-)

Sometimes, I carry a bag, places, and sometimes, I don't...It's kinda funny, when I don't, because I'll have a soap container like hanging out of my back pocket...But, I just play it off like it's no big deal.

When I was in High School, I used to carry a zipper bag (plastic baggie) with a bar of Vegan soap in it (before the kind of soap that I liked was discontinued)...Sometimes, I would, even, just scrape some soap off of the bar, and carry that in a little baggie (btw, that's a good idea for anyone who wants to be inconspicuous, and/or doesn't want to have to carry stuff...that could be fit in a pocket, without even being noticed). In recent years, though, I have become particularly partial to the liquid Kiss My Face soaps, and, always have one with me. Those, could, also, be distributed into a bag, for a single use, or a short day...Or, they sell them in like travel-sized containers.

I strive for 'personal purity', as well as saving the world!! :-) I don't want to put anything in, or on my body, that is animal-derived!!! For me, it is not excusable to use non-Vegan products, for reasons of 'convenience'. (:-|)

And, like some people have said...Any little bit of something bad that you are not using, is less of it that will be purchased/used/and 'in demand', in the future!!!

I do NOT sit on leather, anywhere, either!!! (When I was like a Senior, in High School, I had a seat cover, for sitting in my Mom's [at-the-time] car...Or, sometimes, I would put a beach towel down, on the seat...But, since then, she's gotten a car with cloth seats...So, it's not really an issue, anymore ).

I know about the horrible casein issue (and, stearic acid issue), when it comes to plastics...(:-()...But, I did not know about it being used in latexes. I think that there is "latex", and/or "natural latex" in socks, and possibly undergarments that I wear...Do you know if it is used in latex, 'across-the-board'?! (That is very upsetting!!! :-()

I had heard about "vulcanized rubber" being 'unsafe'...But, really don't know the full story on that, or if it is avoidable to one who must wear shoes. (:-|) But, I do strive to get to the bottom of everything, and only buy things that are totally Vegan!!!

About plastics...in case anyone is interested (or, even not)...I have done a lot of research, and found out some things that are safe, and some that are not...
Nearly all (if not all) Glad products are Vegan (from what I have been told by customer service representativs)...Their baggies are made out of Polyethelyne.
Dart cups are NOT Vegan (:-()....They have stearic acid in them. (:-()
I was told, (in a kind of rude manner), that Solo cups (the plastic bathroom variety, at least), are Vegan...but, you might want to double-check on that.
Casein was, only, widely, used in plastics, up until several decades ago...But, it can, still, be found in some paints, and other things (:-()...(I think that I was told by Benjamin Moore, that their paint doesn't contain anything animal-derived).
I was told that ShopRite (for NJ/PA/NY-area people) plastic wrap (and aluminum foil) are okay, as well...(I forgot to list that one).
If you are inquiring about plastics, make sure to ask about stearic acid, in addition to casein. (I, usually, ask if there is 'casein, stearic acid, or anything else that's animal/insect-derived' in things).

By the way, not all Bath, and Body Works products are Vegan. :-( (I don't even think that they're all Vegetarian. :-( [When I was younger, I bought lip balm there, thinking that it was safe, and found out that there was gelatin in it. :-(]) Don't fall under the common misconception that "Not Tested on Animals" (or, in their case "This Finished Product is Not Tested on Animals"), means "No Animal Ingredients" (just like "All Natural", or, sometimes, even, "Cruelty Free" don't indicate that something is Vegan). When you find yourself dealing with companies, whose representatives tell you that 'none of their products are tested on animals', when you ask about "animal ingredients", don't just accept the first answer that you get...Because, usually, the people have no idea what they're talking about. (:-|)

I don't think that all 'pull & seal'-type envelopes contain animal-derived ingredients...I was told that the 'Ampad' ones (which, I think is the Wal-Mart brand [I hate Wal-Mart, but my Mom gets stuff there, sometimes]), do not.

I got a total 'run-around' answer from '3M' about tapes...They said that they 'don't intentionally add' animal-derived ingredients to the varieties of tape that I had asked about. :-|

It's sad that we live in a world, where virtually nothing is safe!!! :-( I found out, last October, that some paper products, even contain whey (which isn't as bad as casein, or something, but is, still, not Vegan [:-(]). I was trying to find out if things like napkins/tissues/etc. were Vegan...And, I switched to Seventh Generation, thinking that they would be safe (btw, don't buy stuff from them, because they use some of the money to 'buy cows for villages' :-()...But, they weren't...After a long investigation (prodding people at their company, quite a bit), I found out that, the representative's initial answer of, 'All of our products are Vegan' was not true (:-()...Whey is used in the production of their napkins (why, I do not know!). :-| (If anyone knows of Vegan paper products, please, let me know...It's kind of difficult to not ever use napkins [although, I haven't, since I found that out]).

Oh, about Vegan anti-bacterial soaps...I think that I saw one by Nature's Gate, when I was in a Harmon store, the other day. You can look into that. (I think that they said that all of their products are Vegan, now). You can, also, get Vegan hand sanitizer, on Pangea (Veganstore.com)...It's made by the same brand that makes Vegan 'band-aids'. :-)

About water...I am lucky to live in an area, where I have a well...So, my water is not filtered through bad things. I do think about that, when I go out, though. (And, it will freak me out a bit, when it comes to showering, or whatever, if I ever go on vacation, again...But, where I am, now, I am safe. :-)) (I [I]do inquire about filtration processes used on the water that's in things that I eat/drink).

Anyway, I ramble...I think that this is long enough.

In conclusion...I do bring my own soap everywhere...I am most definitely NOT embarrassed, or ashamed of my Veganism (in fact, I rather like to advertise it!!!)!!!!!...And, I don't think that it's okay to knowingly use things that are not Vegan.

Peace!~
[B]*Kristin Star*

PS-Another way to omit potentially bad plastics, from your life (in addition to the well-advertised fact that you'd be 'saving resources'), is to not get bags, when you shop (all, or most of the time)...Bring your own bag, or just carry the items. :-)

Peace!:-)

Rabbit
06-18-2008, 03:36 PM
TruStar, that is impressive! Sometimes I think of that kind of attention to detail as "too much to be practical", or worry that it would make veganism look too hard... but then when I actually talk to (or read the post of) someone who does it, it turns out I feel pretty convicted, and impressed by their dedication.

I think it ALL depends on how one does it... even just leaving out the "basic" things can seem too hard and turn people off if you're whiny about it and ungraceful in how you handle that... or, you can be the strictest vegan around, but if you do it in a friendly, gracious, and compassionate way it just seems like you have strong principles, which people generally respect.

Sooo... way to go, TruStar :thumbsup:

I'm inspired to look into those things a bit more.

emzy1985
06-19-2008, 01:52 AM
* I don't carry my own soap. I don't carry a bag or anything so it would be highly inconvient and stupid looking to my friends.

* The one time I attempted to have sex with a man (epic fail on my behalf btw because I'm a massive lesbian!) I made him get vegan condoms, simply because they exist and are are easily accessable. I don't think, knowing that a vegan version exists, that I could use condoms that had milk protein in them.

* Tyres are unavoidable and count under the exception clause.

* Film used to be, but with the invention of digital cameras I would use a digital any day of the week.

* Plastic bags kills millions of animals so I don't see them as vegan. I always use a material bag. Most places in the UK sell them now. The co-op actually stopped doing plastic bags a few weeks ago! (MAJOR WIN!)

Can't think of anything else to be pedantic about right now!

Lisa_H.
06-19-2008, 03:13 AM
Here is the 'straw' hat.

4520

it does have a leather hatband, I don't wear it too often.

My goodness... if you keep posting pictures like that, VT, you're going to have girls lined up around the block waiting to see you. :) :D

Dugan
06-19-2008, 07:20 AM
You mean like this?
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/funny-pictures-sleeping-kitten-chicks.jpg

bumblebee
06-19-2008, 10:23 AM
My goodness... if you keep posting pictures like that, VT, you're going to have girls lined up around the block waiting to see you. :) :D

When I saw his picture, the Lumber Jack song popped into my head. :silly:

panthera
06-19-2008, 05:05 PM
why is casein "worse" than whey? and what's wrong with filtered water?

TruStar23
06-19-2008, 05:44 PM
Although, I used to think that "casein" was just another 'milk product', like "whey" is, I found out, recently, that it's more like "rennet", in that, it involves animal parts, rather than something that comes from an animal (as in, it involves death, rather than 'just dairy'). :-( Therefore, I do consider it worse. I think that "whey" is just the thin part of milk (whereas "curds" [like in the 'nursery rhyme'], are the chunky [ew] part). But, "casein" is something that is processed through animal intestines, or something, I think (like I said, I think that it's similar to "rennet"). :-( You may want to look it up, to get the exact details (or, you may not, since it's gross [:-(])...I found that out, when I was looking into it, after finding out the horrible truth about some plastics, a year, or so ago...So, I don't remember the exact definition of what it is...But, it's definitely bad. :-( (Although, in my opinion, all animal-derived things are bad!)

And, unfortunately, (according to what I have heard, some places), some water is filtered through 'bone char' (which, I think would make it retain even more of the essence of it, than sugar would, since it's a liquid ). Any inquiries that I have made, about 'filtered water' in products have turned out alright...I have been told by people (such as the people from Knudsen juices), that their water is filtered through natural (earth-derived) carbon, or screens, or stuff like that. There are several different processes used. I don't drink bottled water...But, if I was thinking about it, I would look into it.

~[B]*Kris*

VegeTexan
06-19-2008, 06:27 PM
My goodness... if you keep posting pictures like that, VT, you're going to have girls lined up around the block waiting to see you. :) :D

Waiting.
taps foot
By the way, I'm vegansexual.
Still waiting.

gladcow
06-19-2008, 06:42 PM
From what I've always read, casein is a protein found in animal milks. it's part of the milk. Do you have a source for your information about it being similar to rennet, TruStar23 ? :)

TruStar23
06-19-2008, 07:33 PM
I refered back to Wikipedia, (where I had, originally, encountered that information, from what I recall), and it says that casein is, sometimes, processed with rennet. (:-() So, that does make it worse than just a 'milk protein' (although, it does occur in milk...and, in that form, that is, all that it is). Gosh, people are gross! :-(:-(:-(
~*Kristin*

TruStar23
06-19-2008, 07:36 PM
referred*

quagga
06-19-2008, 07:38 PM
Both casein and whey are components of milk. Milk treated/processed with rennet solidifies/curdles the casein to produce cheese with whey as a byproduct. So in terms of a scale of cruelty that distinguishes between animal body parts and animal secretions, casein and whey are equal.

Rennet is not -- except that you can purchase vegetable-based rennet and you cannot purchase vegetable-based casein or whey.

TruStar23
06-19-2008, 07:42 PM
So, casein exists in some things, simply as a 'milk protein' (without rennet involvement)?!

quagga
06-19-2008, 07:48 PM
So, casein exists in some things, simply as a 'milk protein' (without rennet involvement)?!

Precisely.

TruStar23
06-19-2008, 07:56 PM
Not that it makes a huge difference, in my life, because...I'm a Vegan...So, obviously, I'm against both. But, I am, absolutely frightened by some things (like, to even be near them)...So, it is a bit of a relief to know that not all casein is (directly) death-related. (Do you know about the casein used in plastics/paints?! [That is a 'grey area' that really freaks me out...Because, it's not like plastic comes with an ingredients list :-| {So, I don't know if the plastic drawers that I have contain casein, or anything else offensive :-|}]).
~*Kris*

gladcow
06-19-2008, 07:56 PM
casein naturally exists in all milk from mammals, if I remember correctly. and I heard that they're working on developing a soy casein.

La Végétalienne
06-21-2008, 02:39 PM
What function would a soy casein have? Isn't it casein that makes so many soy cheeses not vegan? I thought the casein's only purpose in that case was to make the soy cheese taste more like cow cheese. Enlighten us, please!

downwithapathy
06-21-2008, 02:51 PM
What function would a soy casein have? Isn't it casein that makes so many soy cheeses not vegan? I thought the casein's only purpose in that case was to make the soy cheese taste more like cow cheese. Enlighten us, please!
I can't go into detail, but casein is used in soy cheese to help with melting. This is the reason why vegan soy cheeses generally don't melt nearly as well as nonvegan soy cheeses.

ahimsa
06-21-2008, 02:54 PM
What function would a soy casein have? Isn't it casein that makes so many soy cheeses not vegan? I thought the casein's only purpose in that case was to make the soy cheese taste more like cow cheese. Enlighten us, please!
I thought that casein was what made the texture ooey-gooey (glue-y!) ... I guess a soy-derived casein analog would make the fake cheese more cheese-like, and also more vegan-like ??

La Végétalienne
06-21-2008, 03:09 PM
I can't go into detail

I really hope your secrecy is related to the fact that you are doing a top-secret soy-cheese mission for the VBI.
(and that would be the Vegan Bureau of Investigation ;), natch.)

gladcow
06-22-2008, 12:00 AM
yeah, what they said. if we can isolate casien from a plant based substance like soy, we can make a more "realistic" vegan cheese. casien is a protein. it's responsible for the structure of the cheese, really. and it's melting attributes.

bumblebee
06-22-2008, 01:36 PM
The texture of vegan cheese is less disappointing than the taste is, to me.
The most realistic cheeses taste like American cheese, rather than a high quality sharp cheddar, which is what I miss. :umm:

Lisa_H.
08-07-2009, 03:54 AM
Ok this is a dedicated thread to products that have minute amounts of animal ingredients or were processed using animal ingredients.

Today I was researching dental filling materials, in anticipation of someday getting my 1970s-era mercury/silver amalgam fillings replaced (they're quite long-lived, not loose or cracked, although worn down to about half their original size on top), but unfortunately I discovered the following June 2009 article which may result in making an addition to the Vegan Exception Clauses list:


Dentists to Put Bile Acids in Your Teeth? (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090601-dental-fillings-bile.html)

Modern dental fillings contain either mercury or a chemical called bisphenol A. Both substances help the fillings harden but are potentially toxic to humans and the environment.

The new filling uses bile acids in place of these ingredients.

Bile acids are components of bile produced during the breakdown of cholesterol in the liver....

Human bile acids are chemically identical to those found in pigs, cattle, and many other animals, so farms could provide a cheap and abundant supply of the filling ingredient, Zhu added.

Although he acknowledges the potential "yuck factor" of filling cavities with a product of animal digestion, Zhu thinks bile-based fillings beat the alternative.

"Would you rather put a mercury-containing material into your body, knowing that some of it could end up in a vital organ?" he said.

(bold mine)

That probably comes under the heading of "medicine" which I've heard some vegans say is exempt anyway, but...

I'll be holding off on those animal-liver-bile dental fillings, at least for the time being... never was one for cutting-edge technology anyway; let others work out the bugs/problems first... but if it was a choice between that and toothache-from-hell, well... sorry, pigs 'n' cows... falling back on the old "they're already dead, I didn't kill 'em" thing.

Then again, many dentists cling to their beliefs that mercury/silver amalgam is perfectly safe, and maybe they're right, who knows... they seem to have the support of other industry butt-kissers (http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm173992.htm) who also fail to see much problem there. I suppose I should stop whining - the FDA did move it up from "Class I (low risk) to Class II (moderate risk)". And besides, hey, all the movies say :silly: silver repels werewolves, :p so, see, it's not so bad... :umm: might just keep the old silver/mercury fillings after all (at least they're small these days, both in number and size - much of the metal there has already vanished, worn down and worked its way through/into the digestive tract over the years, presumably - possibly the cause of some of my problems - so maybe a bit late to worry about it now anyway).

Oh, one nitpicky little detail, the article uses the word "farms" for supplying the bile, but the word they should have used was "slaughterhouses." They're trying to sanitize it and make it sound all healthy and wholesome for public consumption, you know, the usual city-dwelling-humans' image of cute happy cows frolicking in green pastures under blue skies, but we know better.

Meanwhile, I've switched back to a flouride toothpaste and am doubling-up on the tooth-brushing - hope to stall/delay any further dental problems for as many years as possible. I do have one other tiny cavity-looking-thing that's never been filled. Its size hasn't increased and in years/decades past if it started hurting I just put a dab of flouride toothpaste on it several times per day for a week or so, and that seemed to remineralize things enough to hold its own, so to speak, forestalling further obvious decay. I don't know how long that will continue to work, though.

Ah well, I don't have the bread for dental work right now anyway (haven't had dental insurance for many years, and I prefer to spend any spare cash on more-important things like nerd toys :happy: for myself), so I guess it's academic at this point.

But later, someday, if the quoted article is correct, I'll probably have to choose between the new bile fillings (dead-animal-sourced) and mercury (allegedly bad) or bisphenol (also allegedly bad).

Maybe those mad scientists will do something useful for a change ;) and invent some more options, like why the hell don't they get off their lazy behinds ;) (I'm challengin' ya, :) science dudes) and invent genetically-engineered teeth that 100-percent heal themselves, huh? Well? Aren't they up to the task, can't handle it, "not man enough" (or woman enough) to do the job? Oops, not enough money in it, and the American Dental Association would have a fit if anything cut into their profits. What a shame.

Lisa_H.
08-07-2009, 05:12 AM
One other exception, already in use: Last year (about the same time I quit posting here) I broke my long-standing rule of not using glossy or semi-glossy paper when printing out digital photos or for other computer printing. 15+ years of dull/matte printing was enough - I couldn't take it anymore ;)

Glossy and semi-gloss printer papers supposedly sometimes have gelatin in them, which of course comes from hooves-n-hides-n-stuff like that. http://www.vegansociety.com/people/lifestyle/hobbies/photography.php says:


Printing out digital photos

Inkjet 'photo' papers are printer papers with a high gloss finish for use when printing out your own digital photos. They often contain gelatine, but not always.

So, it's 'often, but not always' eh - aha! My exception. Oh!!! And they spelled "gelatin" funny, with an extra "e" on it, so maybe it's something else - haha (doubtful).

I dutifully avoided all glossy printer papers for years... and years... and years... including one time in the 1990s when I threw out many $$ worth of expensive specialty paper when I found out it contained gelatin (verified by manufacturer) ... but now... But here's the thing:

My rationalization (funny how we humans can come up with clever rationalizations when things seem impossible) is that:


I'm only using semi-gloss :rolleyes: paper
Semi-gloss is about half as glossy as actual glossy paper, so...
therefore it's only half non-vegan :p :rolleyes: (right?) ;) instead of 100-percent non-vegan, :rolleyes:


Oh, well and then there's the "ignorance is bliss" factor in that I'm buying laser paper now, not inkjet paper (no more inkjet printers; :happy: :heart: yay), so who knows, maybe it isn't gelatin after all. Don't tell me, I don't wanna know, "Not listening, na-na-na" (covers ears). ;) It probably is, though - feels like it, and it reacts to water splashed on it as if it were gelatin. I wonder what the melting point is, for gelatin... color laser printers run very hot so if gelatin has a low melting point, they wouldn't use it on laser-printer papers because it would stick to the fuser... as you can probably guess by now, I haven't got much interest in finding out, either.

Maybe such things serve a purpose - helps to remind me to not get up on my high-horse, thinking myself superior and all high-and-mighty or whatever, and regarding everyone else (non-vegans) as weak-willed spineless wimps who are too lazy to even try to improve their lives (I should know better, but I forget sometimes), since I have my own exception where there's no suitable alternatives that would offer the same quality/functionality for a given purpose, like the minor issue of printer paper.

If it's true that 'he who is faithful in the smallest things, is faithful in much,' (bad paraphrase of something that I was indoctrinated with at an early age, probably Psalms or something like that, I forget now) then I guess I've failed the test. :cry: :blank:

Well. Life's a b**ch and then you... I hope I don't have to come back as a cow/bull/whatever and get melted down for gelatin ;) to put on someone's printer paper. :laugh: (Hey, I said I'm Christian, but with some, er, customizations which seem logical to me - didn't Mr. J. himself allegedly have a previous life in the "heavens" or someplace? That's what I was taught, anyway, by some very right-wing conservatives too. I've deprogrammed myself of most of that early indoctrination, but some of it remains.)

Miso Vegan
08-07-2009, 10:29 AM
I did not know that about glossy paper....

Mahk
08-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Gelatin with an 'e' at the end must be the British spelling, I'd think.

I stopped buying photographic film, which also contains the stuff, when I became a strict vegetarian some decades ago but always wondered if I was being a hypocrite by continuing to watch movies and of course images in books and magazines. "Should I avert my eyes when I walk past the magazine/ newsstand and stop watching movies?" I wondered. Vegetarian Times magazine had plenty of photographs in it so I knew the majority seemed to agree it was "allowed" but I still couldn't bring myself to buying film for decades but thankfully digital photography eventually came along and I'm back at one of my favorite hobbies.:)

tin can
08-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Gelatin with an 'e' at the end must be the British spelling, I'd think.

Yep. :)

If it's of any interest to anyone, when I checked with Kodak about five years ago, their ordinary basic, non-fancy-schmancy photo papers (I think it was this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/KODAK-4x6-Photo-Paper-Gloss/dp/B000SHQ112/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1249665269&sr=8-17)) was gelatine-free, but none of the others were.

Mahk
08-07-2009, 12:30 PM
^Hmm, that seems odd. Might you still have the email in your computer?

http://www.guiavegano.com.br/vegan/respostas-dos-sacs/kodak

tin can
08-07-2009, 12:39 PM
No, 'fraid I don't still have the e-mail, or the e-mail address, for that matter. I remember the e-mail being very genuine and believeable, though (it was from a real guy, not a standard response). Hmm, come to think of it, it may even have been a letter rather than an e-mail.

Of course, things may have changed since. However, photographic paper is basically just the same stuff they put on film spread onto paper instead of film, so it makes sense that it would usually contain gelatine. The glossy finish on photo paper for printers is trying to mimic that of traditional photo paper, so I would imagine that, especially for the higher-end photo printer paper (mine wasn't all that glossy, and certainly wouldn't have been mistaken for traditional photo paper) the formulation would be similar.